permaculture

[Koreen Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>]

This is great Jason, thank you. I thought about snow fencing for the first 
time, this year - your comments give me more confidence about using it. Don't 
know why I didn't think of it earlier!  Just not used to dealing with snow...

I dearly wish I could plant black locust - it has so many uses!  And you have 
just given me more reasons to plant it. But it is toxic to horses and one of 
the main demonstration sites is a wild horse ranch.  
http://www.understanding-horse-nutrition.com/black-locust-tree.html  

I haven't seen any black locust on the rez, and I'm trying to not bring in 
anything myself that could adversely impact. Horses are sacred and a huge 
healer on the rez.  We substituted honey locust and planted hundreds of them, 
but lost a good chunk last year when there is a severe drought and fire and 
they weren't watered. They were growing more slowly than I wished as well, 
from a number of factors. So I'm thinking of every way I can to loosen the 
soil, keep it loose (using machinery to dig the holes really packs it down - 
we hand dug last year but am not up to hand digging 600 holes in compacted 
clay!), give them adequate nutrition, and protect even the windbreak trees 
from too much wind.  The snow fence sounds good, and it's not too expensive. 
We do have lots of straw bale right now too, but not enough for that many 
trees. I'm renting a truck to get as much manure as I need. I may have to 
haul some of it 50 or 100 miles (the rez is so spread out!),
 but if I get 600 trees established, it will be worth it. Trying to get the 
herds in to drop a bunch of it next to the forest area. That would be ideal, 
but timing is everything.  

We've planted some Saskatoon serviceberries and other amelanchiers. I haven't 
tasted any of the "wild" varieties but told they are small and not as tasty 
as the cultivars (as it usually is). I planted a few of the Saskatoon 
cultivars that are being used commercially in Canada, could be another income 
source and good nutritional source too. Do you have any experience with those 
in harsh climates? 

I really appreciate any wisdom you and others can share about trees in a 
harsh temperate drylands. I want them to be maximally successful and be able 
to plant thousands. Thanks for the info about the linden too. They seemed 
pretty delicate the first year - people really loved them last year, they 
loved the idea of eating leaves. I haven't tried using the flowers. What are 
they used for in your parts? Maybe that could be an industry they could get 
into!  So few chances for employment on the rez. Do you dry them? I might be 
able to find outlets for them on my route, or in Minnesota/S Dakota/Nebraska. 
Do you propagate them, and how if so? Do you eat the leaves when they are 
older? I think they're good, though the young ones are better!  I'm wondering 
if anyone has tried drying them and if they have nutrition. Working on how to 
provide food in the winter there. Growing the usual annuals can be tough and 
they definitely need attention. We're using
 sunchokes which usually grow great there. Interested to see if they survived 
without water in one location they were at.    

Koreen Brennan

www.growpermaculture.com
www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition


________________________________
 From: Jason Gerhardt <jasongerhardt@gmail.com>
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org 
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 1:25 AM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Drylands water capture question
 

Koreen,
Linden grows well in Colorado, which is very similar climatic circumstances
as Pine Ridge. They do need a little more water, but once established are
very hardy. We eat the young leaves in spring and harvest the flowers and
bracts to dry and sell to a local apothecary.

My advice on windbreak species would be to consider black locust. Of all
windbreak species planted on the plains during the Soil Conservation
Service days none had a higher success rate than black locust. None grow
faster too.
 Black locust is arguably more useful than any of the others as
well. These can be grown out cheap from seed. I do this each year in
Colorado. Once you have one windbreak you can take a tractor with a disc on
it and rip the ground on either side of the black locust line. This will
encourage them to root sucker and then you have all the trees you will ever
need for propagation. This is how it was done back in the 30's/40's, or so
I'm told. Disturbance definitely aids sucker sprouting in many suckering
species, *Amelanchiers* as well, which would be another valuable one to
plant up there. Good sense of place species.

As far as planting I have a few suggestions. One is to plant every tree in
a small basin to at least capture a little extra rainfall. Depressions will
also capture wind driven snow. Another suggestion would be to add snow
fencing to the windbreak lines to aid establishment. If you can't get
 snow
fencing, try a line of strawbales, or even bundled tumbleweeds, staked in
place, anything to get the snow to drop out of the wind. If you do use snow
fencing then you can just move it on after a couple years to the next
windbreak. Strawbales of course just turn into mulch, so that may be
easier.

Just a few of my thoughts on the matter,

-- 
Jason Gerhardt

PO Box 4355
Boulder, CO 80306
303-258-7982
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From: Koreen Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
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Subject: Re: [permaculture] Drylands water capture question
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Yay!  Wasn't sure how tilia handled drought. This is great news. I am 
planning to bring in as much wood and manure as possible. I thought that 
humus would make a big difference but never conclude fully until I've tried 
it for a few years....  How do you irrigate to get them established? I'd love 
to hear from anybody who isn't using irrigation hose; how much you need to 
water, how often, to get the trees established.  
 
Koreen Brennan

www.growpermaculture.com
www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition


________________________________
 From: Dieter Brand <diebrand@yahoo.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org> 
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 7:41 AM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Drylands water capture question
 

Hi Koreen,

I live in a semi-arid region with dry spells ranging from 6 to 10 months a 
year, but temperatures are higher than where you are. We do get a little 
night frost in winter, and during the summer, temps sometimes top the 100 F 
mark. The heavy dry soil which is lacking humus dries out very quickly.

The single most important measure is to increase the humus level of the soil 
by any means possible (compost, mulch, manure). It is best to apply all 
uncomposted material to the surface. I even use whole tree trunks or 
branches. It doesn't matter if it looks a bit messy in the beginning. Nature 
will do its work and break everything down. 

By increasing the humus level, the humidity-retention properties of the soil 
is improved and you can plant many trees you would not otherwise be able to 
plant.

I planted some tilia in the beginning and was surprised at how well they cope 
with drought. Once they are established (after about 2 years) they can go 6 
months without rain. Obviously the leaves start to look at bit suffering at 
the end of the dry season.

You can use the flowers to make very delicious herb tea. I have been using it 
for years. The flowers emit a very intensive scent and attract many insects. 
The whole air is buzzing when the tilias are in flower.

Regards,
Dieter


--- On Thu, 4/25/13, Koreen Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: Koreen Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
> Subject: [permaculture] Drylands water capture question
> To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Date: Thursday, April 25, 2013, 1:34 AM
> We are being given 500 trees to plant
> at Pine Ridge reservation this year and I'd like to
> experiment with some of them, using different drylands water
> capture techniques and creating a space to  be a demo site.
> We have the room on one of the sites we are working with.
> We've had a hard time working out the funding and logistics
> to plant deep root plants like alfalfa and then add trees so
> we're having to slam dunk the trees and somehow come up with
> ways to loosen the soil and replicate a forest setting that
> is more compatible with them. We're using mycorrhizae,
> compost tea, worm castings, mulch, etc, to give them a good
> base. The soil is compacted clay/silt, the wind gets pretty
> fierce sometimes and dries everything out (down to six
> inches sometimes, pretty routine for the first few inches to
> be dried out by wind), and we can go without rain for
> sometimes two months or more, and then just get a little
> bit. Most of the rain/snow melt comes in the spring.
>  The winter sometimes is pretty dry until late winter.
> Temperature extremes, sometimes from day to day (below
> freezing one day, 85 degrees the next , from 110 to -30 F
> extreme). Rainstorms coming through sometimes miss us
> totally, go to either side. So it is pretty hit or miss in
> the summer.The wind blows mulch off site, hard to mulch the
> trees (so we are going to mulch them under a layer of tamped
> down clay soil) The trees we're planting are fairly tough
> (cottonwood, Ponderosa Pine, Rocky Mountain cedar), and are
> native to the area except one (Tilia Americana). 
> 
> Has anybody planted linden (tilia) in drylands? It does grow
> up there, and I planted some last year that is doing fine. I
> just don't know how much water/care it needs compared to the
> natives. Does anybody know of a way to preserve linden
> leaves or if they would have any nutrition value dried?  
> 
> I would love to hear from people who are planting trees in
> similar environments and what your most successful actions
> have been. I'm a semitropical girl and still learning this
> environment. I will credit you for anything you share when I
> do my yearly write up. 
> 
> We are using several techniques from Brad Lancaster's book,
> and also a technique I haven't heard of anyone using, but it
> makes sense to me. One of the successful modes of irrigation
> up there is a deep water pipe - a vertical 6 inch PVC pipe
> that has holes in it, stuck in the ground and filled with
> water to release slowly, beneath the surface where it forces
> the roots downward and where the soil can hold moisture
> better.  We can't afford 500 of these and plus we don't
> really want to put all that PVC in the ground, so we're
> going to dig holes with post hole diggers and stuff them
> with wood chips and sticks that we are getting from the fire
> department's fire suppression brush clearance. We're
> thinking of ways we can mimic what keyline does (we don't
> have funding for a plow), or a forest floor. Hugulkulture of
> course - we will try that as one method. We don't have
> enough logs to create hugulkulture mounds for 500 trees -
> that method is not practical on any
>  kind of scale there right now.  Maybe in 50 years after we
> plant thousands of trees, lol. 
> 
> Anyone see anything I'm missing?
> 
> We will irrigate the linden especially as a back up, but
> want to find ways to get these trees to survive without it
> because we could get a lot more planted if we could do that.
> We are establishing wind break systems in the areas where we
> are working now, and will keep doing that. We're working on
> funding to pay a Lakota to hand water from a truck, which is
> how the NRD does it with their windbreak tree projects where
> they plant thousands of them - watering 2-3 times per year
> is enough to keep those tough trees alive even in some
> drought. We've also had volunteers go out there and water
> (and welcome volunteers in summer time to check on the
> trees!) Trees make a huge difference in quality of life in
> that part of the world. There used to be more of them. When
> you go into a little pine forest there, it feels so good, in
> both winter and summer. Their houses would be protected, a
> lot of things would be better. The people there are careful
> with using trees for
>  firewood - there is a culture of sustainable harvest there
> of animals, trees, plants. If we plant enough of them, they
> have some for emergency fuel, fence posts, and of course,
> food.  Seven generation project.
> 
> We would like to expand this tree planting program to 1000's
> of trees - looking for volunteers, especially grant
> writers/fund raisers, but other skill sets too, to make that
> happen, and there is much else needed - natural building,
> broad scale water catchment, etc. We are still fund raising
> too, for fuel for the machinery we're using, a truck to haul
> chips, chipper, etc. Our non-profit is 
> http://www.permacultureguild.us/category/donate/  if
> anyone is moved to donate - even a small amount is hugely
> helpful!  We stretch those dollars.
>  
> Koreen Brennan
> 
> www.growpermaculture.com
> www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
> www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition
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Subject: [permaculture] pre-order Carbon Farming book
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Hi everyone,

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