permaculture

[Koreen Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>]

Interesting Peter. I'm not totally getting a picture of your swale/dam/pipe 
model. Do you have an example somewhere on line? A picture of it? Anybody 
else try this vertical pipe idea? People are using them in the area and they 
appear to be working in some situations at least. I'm just thinking that if I 
can create drainage and get the water to the roots where it belongs instead 
of sitting on the stem or blowing away or evaporating, everybody wins. And by 
using wood chips, they can hold some moisture. If I pour compost tea on 
them.... We have tried mulching to keep the soil from drying out and that 
definitely helps- we need heavier mulch like large wood chips, that won't 
blow away. I'm just thinking that if I can replicate the space and air 
pockets and get some worms in there, maybe biochar, etc, the tree roots will 
have more space to spread and establish faster and we can create soils 
faster. . 
 
Koreen Brennan

www.growpermaculture.com
www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition


________________________________
 From: Peter Suter <peter.suter@activ8.net.au>
To: 'permaculture' <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org> 
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 4:38 PM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Drylands water capture question
 

Hi Koreen,
I'm in an area that is on its way to becoming a desert. North Central
Victoria, Australia. I've been experimenting with some of the dryland
techniques for about five years.

I've used a technique similar to your deep water pipe - agricultural pipe
under a small swale with a small dam at one end. It's all based on the
levels - The swale and pipe fills the dam; the dam fills the pipe; ground
runoff fills the dam. In the swale mound are mostly drought tolerant native
Acacia. They are growing so well that I don't have any hesitation in
attributing much to this technique.

I've also tried the vertical pipe in the post hole idea. Everything died.
I've tried the net-and-pan technique. It works well if the trees get big
before heavy rain. If the rain comes before the trees are up then many in
heavy clay areas drown.

Since you've identified a dry layer down to 6 inches, I'd love to see the
results from planting larger seedlings 6 inches lower than normal. i.e.
using that top 6 inches of soil as mulch.

Best Regards
Peter Suter

-----Original Message-----
From: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Koreen Brennan
Sent: Thursday, 25 April 2013 10:34 AM
To: permaculture
Subject: [permaculture] Drylands water capture question

We are being given 500 trees to plant at Pine Ridge reservation this year
and I'd like to experiment with some of them, using different drylands water
capture techniques and creating a space to  be a demo site. We have the room
on one of the sites we are working with. We've had a hard time working out
the funding and logistics to plant deep root plants like alfalfa and then
add trees so we're having to slam dunk the trees and somehow come up with
ways to loosen the soil and replicate a forest setting that is more
compatible with them. We're using mycorrhizae, compost tea, worm castings,
mulch, etc, to give them a good base. The soil is compacted clay/silt, the
wind gets pretty fierce sometimes and dries everything out (down to six
inches sometimes, pretty routine for the first few inches to be dried out by
wind), and we can go without rain for sometimes two months or more, and then
just get a little bit. Most of the rain/snow melt comes in the spring.
The winter sometimes is pretty dry until late winter. Temperature extremes,
sometimes from day to day (below freezing one day, 85 degrees the next ,
from 110 to -30 F extreme). Rainstorms coming through sometimes miss us
totally, go to either side. So it is pretty hit or miss in the summer.The
wind blows mulch off site, hard to mulch the trees (so we are going to mulch
them under a layer of tamped down clay soil) The trees we're planting are
fairly tough (cottonwood, Ponderosa Pine, Rocky Mountain cedar), and are
native to the area except one (Tilia Americana). 

Has anybody planted linden (tilia) in drylands? It does grow up there, and I
planted some last year that is doing fine. I just don't know how much
water/care it needs compared to the natives. Does anybody know of a way to
preserve linden leaves or if they would have any nutrition value dried?  

I would love to hear from people who are planting trees in similar
environments and what your most successful actions have been. I'm a
semitropical girl and still learning this environment. I will credit you for
anything you share when I do my yearly write up. 

We are using several techniques from Brad Lancaster's book, and also a
technique I haven't heard of anyone using, but it makes sense to me. One of
the successful modes of irrigation up there is a deep water pipe - a
vertical 6 inch PVC pipe that has holes in it, stuck in the ground and
filled with water to release slowly, beneath the surface where it forces the
roots downward and where the soil can hold moisture better.  We can't afford
500 of these and plus we don't really want to put all that PVC in the
ground, so we're going to dig holes with post hole diggers and stuff them
with wood chips and sticks that we are getting from the fire department's
fire suppression brush clearance. We're thinking of ways we can mimic what
keyline does (we don't have funding for a plow), or a forest floor.
Hugulkulture of course - we will try that as one method. We don't have
enough logs to create hugulkulture mounds for 500 trees - that method is not
practical on any
kind of scale there right now.  Maybe in 50 years after we plant thousands
of trees, lol. 

Anyone see anything I'm missing?

We will irrigate the linden especially as a back up, but want to find ways
to get these trees to survive without it because we could get a lot more
planted if we could do that. We are establishing wind break systems in the
areas where we are working now, and will keep doing that. We're working on
funding to pay a Lakota to hand water from a truck, which is how the NRD
does it with their windbreak tree projects where they plant thousands of
them - watering 2-3 times per year is enough to keep those tough trees alive
even in some drought. We've also had volunteers go out there and water (and
welcome volunteers in summer time to check on the trees!) Trees make a huge
difference in quality of life in that part of the world. There used to be
more of them. When you go into a little pine forest there, it feels so good,
in both winter and summer. Their houses would be protected, a lot of things
would be better. The people there are careful with using trees for
firewood - there is a culture of sustainable harvest there of animals,
trees, plants. If we plant enough of them, they have some for emergency
fuel, fence posts, and of course, food.  Seven generation project.

We would like to expand this tree planting program to 1000's of trees -
looking for volunteers, especially grant writers/fund raisers, but other
skill sets too, to make that happen, and there is much else needed - natural
building, broad scale water catchment, etc. We are still fund raising too,
for fuel for the machinery we're using, a truck to haul chips, chipper, etc.
Our non-profit is http://www.permacultureguild.us/category/donate/  if
anyone is moved to donate - even a small amount is hugely helpful!  We
stretch those dollars.
 
Koreen Brennan

www.growpermaculture.com
www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition
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Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 15:17:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Koreen Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
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Jason,  LOL. 

Does the caerulea produce more flowers than the incarnata? How do you 
propagate the incarnata? Would like to try to grow some up there. Didn't know 
about this medicinal value:  
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passiflora_incarnata (at the end of the article)

Your set up sounds great. Maybe I will get out there to see it someday! We 
did plant some nanking, serviceberry, goldenberry, raspberry, Siberian pea 
shrub, hazel, buffalo berry, and a few others. They won't be making wine with 
it up there tho - alcohol is illegal on the rez. But sounds delicious! 
 
 

________________________________
 From: Jason Gerhardt <jasongerhardt@gmail.com>
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org 
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 1:46 PM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Drylands water capture question
 

I thought I might throw you off with that passionflower remark. We have it
in a greenhouse year round. It is the slightly hardy *Passiflora caerulea*.
Makes no fruit worth eating, but thousands of flowers every year. I assign
a student everyday to go in the greenhouse and harvest and set to dry the
days crop (each flower lasts roughly one day only; at peak bloom we get up
to 40 per day). It is one of the highest paying herbs to grow, aside from
wildcrafted stuff and reishi mushroom.

I do have *P. incarnata* outside here, but I just let those make fruits for
juice.

Have you planted nanking cherry up at Pine Ridge? These make great
windbreaks and decent fruit. A student of mine turned last years harvest
into a Nanking wine, and wow! Probably the best non-grape fruit wine I've
ever tasted.

-- 
Jason Gerhardt

PO Box 4355
Boulder, CO 80306
303-258-7982
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>From jacque@book-woman.net  Thu Apr 25 18:20:33 2013
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Koreen, I ran across the Groasis Waterboxx a couple years ago. Haven't tried 
them, and I'm sure you can't afford to buy them, but both this explanation of 
how they work, and associated info on the Groasis site may give you some 
fruitful ideas to play with. The Waterboxx itself is patented, so take care.

http://www.popsci.com/bown/2010/product/aquapro-holland-groasis-waterboxx


On Apr 24, 2013, at 5:34 PM, Koreen Brennan wrote:

> We are being given 500 trees to plant at Pine Ridge reservation this year 
> and I'd like to experiment with some of them, using different drylands 
> water capture techniques and creating a space to  be a demo site. We have 
> the room on one of the sites we are working with. We've had a hard time 
> working out the funding and logistics to plant deep root plants like 
> alfalfa and then add trees so we're having to slam dunk the trees and 
> somehow come up with ways to loosen the soil and replicate a forest setting 
> that is more compatible with them. We're using mycorrhizae, compost tea, 
> worm castings, mulch, etc, to give them a good base. The soil is compacted 
> clay/silt, the wind gets pretty fierce sometimes and dries everything out 
> (down to six inches sometimes, pretty routine for the first few inches to 
> be dried out by wind), and we can go without rain for sometimes two months 
> or more, and then just get a little bit. Most of the rain/snow melt comes 
> in the spring.
> The winter sometimes is pretty dry until late winter. Temperature extremes, 
> sometimes from day to day (below freezing one day, 85 degrees the next , 
> from 110 to -30 F extreme). Rainstorms coming through sometimes miss us 
> totally, go to either side. So it is pretty hit or miss in the summer.The 
> wind blows mulch off site, hard to mulch the trees (so we are going to 
> mulch them under a layer of tamped down clay soil) The trees we're planting 
> are fairly tough (cottonwood, Ponderosa Pine, Rocky Mountain cedar), and 
> are native to the area except one (Tilia Americana). 
> 
> Has anybody planted linden (tilia) in drylands? It does grow up there, and 
> I planted some last year that is doing fine. I just don't know how much 
> water/care it needs compared to the natives. Does anybody know of a way to 
> preserve linden leaves or if they would have any nutrition value dried?  
> 
> I would love to hear from people who are planting trees in similar 
> environments and what your most successful actions have been. I'm a 
> semitropical girl and still learning this environment. I will credit you 
> for anything you share when I do my yearly write up. 
> 
> We are using several techniques from Brad Lancaster's book, and also a 
> technique I haven't heard of anyone using, but it makes sense to me. One of 
> the successful modes of irrigation up there is a deep water pipe - a 
> vertical 6 inch PVC pipe that has holes in it, stuck in the ground and 
> filled with water to release slowly, beneath the surface where it forces 
> the roots downward and where the soil can hold moisture better.  We can't 
> afford 500 of these and plus we don't really want to put all that PVC in 
> the ground, so we're going to dig holes with post hole diggers and stuff 
> them with wood chips and sticks that we are getting from the fire 
> department's fire suppression brush clearance. We're thinking of ways we 
> can mimic what keyline does (we don't have funding for a plow), or a forest 
> floor. Hugulkulture of course - we will try that as one method. We don't 
> have enough logs to create hugulkulture mounds for 500 trees - that method 
> is not practical on any
> kind of scale there right now.  Maybe in 50 years after we plant thousands 
> of trees, lol. 
> 
> Anyone see anything I'm missing?
> 
> We will irrigate the linden especially as a back up, but want to find ways 
> to get these trees to survive without it because we could get a lot more 
> planted if we could do that. We are establishing wind break systems in the 
> areas where we are working now, and will keep doing that. We're working on 
> funding to pay a Lakota to hand water from a truck, which is how the NRD 
> does it with their windbreak tree projects where they plant thousands of 
> them - watering 2-3 times per year is enough to keep those tough trees 
> alive even in some drought. We've also had volunteers go out there and 
> water (and welcome volunteers in summer time to check on the trees!) Trees 
> make a huge difference in quality of life in that part of the world. There 
> used to be more of them. When you go into a little pine forest there, it 
> feels so good, in both winter and summer. Their houses would be protected, 
> a lot of things would be better. The people there are careful with using 
> trees for
> firewood - there is a culture of sustainable harvest there of animals, 
> trees, plants. If we plant enough of them, they have some for emergency 
> fuel, fence posts, and of course, food.  Seven generation project.
> 
> We would like to expand this tree planting program to 1000's of trees - 
> looking for volunteers, especially grant writers/fund raisers, but other 
> skill sets too, to make that happen, and there is much else needed - 
> natural building, broad scale water catchment, etc. We are still fund 
> raising too, for fuel for the machinery we're using, a truck to haul chips, 
> chipper, etc. Our non-profit is 
> http://www.permacultureguild.us/category/donate/  if anyone is moved to 
> donate - even a small amount is hugely helpful!  We stretch those dollars.
>  
> Koreen Brennan
> 
> www.growpermaculture.com
> www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
> www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition
> _______________________________________________
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> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
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> maintenance:
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> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
>