permaculture

[Koreen Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>]

LOL. Sounds pretty entertaining. :-) Need any help? I know a couple of guys 
who would get a kick out of that. Do you use any irrigation on the apricot or 
plum at all? Just the rocks?  We don't have rocks there - it's really just 
clay and dust. But we can use a snow fence. 

These are all great stories! Glad I asked, just to hear the stories :-)  And 
great info too. I'm all ears - love it! 
 
 


________________________________
 From: Jay Woods <woodsjay@cox.net>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org> 
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 8:14 AM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Drylands water capture question
 

In Yakima up on the ridges at 3000 ft, I've done well with Manchurian apricot 
and 
plums.

To harvest water I used the tricks of ditching to a basin around the tree 
with a 6 in 
layer of rocks over the basin and a larger pile of rocks on the Northwest 
side of the 
tree (which is the usual direction of blowing snow) to stop snow drifting and 
harvest the 
water. Of course, drilling a 4 ft hole and 1/4 stick of dynamite to break up 
the caliche 
layer is a fun activity. 

On Thursday, April 25, 2013 09:43:38 PM Andrew Millison wrote:
> Koreen,
> I noticed on the Navajo and Hopi lands, very harsh high desert with extreme
> wind, the only deciduous tree that grew in extremely degraded areas is the
> Siberian Elm. I'd stare in wonder as I passed by abandoned rest stops or
> burnt out homes at how the ugly elm with it's dead lower limbs and
> sandblasted understory persisted.
> 
> There are not a lot of fans of this tree out there, but I have recommended
> planting it on the windswept Colorado Plateau because of it's usefulness as
> firewood and coppice abilities. Many people drive up in the hills to cut
> Juniper, when they could have multiple windbreaks of Ulmus pumila cut on
> multi-year rotation for fuel near their homes. It's not an exceptional
> firewood, but it's decent, I've burned it plenty. You can plant from the
> prolific seed, just rake them into a swale and they will germinate with
> abundance. Of course the seed will blow into gardens and act as a weed in
> cultivated areas. But windbreaks of Siberian Elm spaced out every 50 feet
> will alter the microclimate to get more valuable trees established.
> 
> Good luck!
> Andrew
> 
> On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 9:00 PM, loren luyendyk <loren@sborganics.com>wrote:
> > Hi Koreen-
> > 
> > You could try to catch some atmospheric moisture to water the trees.  A
> > shade cloth shelter on the upwind side will block the wind, offer some
> > shade, and also act as a dew fence- if there is any moisture in the wind
> > when it blows it will condense on the fabric and drip to wherever you
> > direct it.  You can get big rolls of shade cloth for pretty cheap, and can
> > use rebar to stake- 3 x 4 ft pieces/ tree.  Alternatively if you can get
> > ahold of bamboo that may suffice and be cheaper, but may not hold up in
> > big
> > winds.
> > 
> > If you have rocks available they are great mulch.  Stacks of them will
> > also condense atmospheric moisture.  There was a thread on them recently-
> > air wells. really labor intensive obviously but permanent.
> > 
> > The "waterboxx" is another gadget to catch dew, but their $30/ea price tag
> > is a little expensive.  They have an agenda to replant 2 billion hectares
> > with their planting technique.  Maybe  they would donate 600 units!?
> > http://www.groasis.com/en/summary/summary-of-the-groasis-technology
> > 
> > The idea is surface area catches water, especially if there is a
> > temperature gradient like when dew condenses on metal at night because the
> > metal is colder than the air.  You could accomplish this on the cheap with
> > corrugated roofing or metal sheeting shaped into funnels around the bases
> > of trees to direct dew to the roots.
> > 
> > Not sure how realistic any of these would be on the rez.  Of course all
> > this also depends on their being moisture in the air.  Maybe try it out on
> > a few and see how it goes.
> > 
> > cheers-
> > Loren Luyendyk
> > 805-452-8249
> > Permaculture Design and Education
> > ISA Certified Arborist #WE-7805A
> > www.sborganics.com
> > www.globalpermaculture.com
> > www.surferswithoutborders.com
> > 
> > > Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 09:09:32 -0700
> > > From: cory8570@yahoo.com
> > > To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > Subject: Re: [permaculture] Drylands water capture question
> > > 
> > > You have a mustang!  Amazing creatures aren't they?  Thank you much for
> > 
> > sharing your favorite alnifolias. I think we did actually get a Regent
> > last
> > year so now I'll take a good look when I go up. You're growing passion
> > flower as an annual? I tried to get seed started up there one year but was
> > doing too much else to pay attention, it didn't take off. Does it fruit in
> > the season you have, or do you extend with greenhouse?  Yum!
> > 
> > > Koreen Brennan
> > > 
> > > www.growpermaculture.com
> > > www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
> > > www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition
> > > 
> > > 
> > > ________________________________
> > > 
> > >  From: Jason Gerhardt <jasongerhardt@gmail.com>
> > > 
> > > To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 10:18 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [permaculture] Drylands water capture question
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Koreen,
> > > I here ya on the black locust and toxicity. I've had a mustang for the
> > 
> > last
> > 
> > > 8 years and know the sensitivity of the horses gut well. Though mustangs
> > > are much hardier than most other breeds.
> > > 
> > > All the Amelanchiers do great in Colorado. I even plant the allegeny
> > > species (Eastern deciduous forest native). For fruit quality, of them
> > 
> > all I
> > 
> > > like the cultivated alnifolias. It truly depends on the person though. I
> > 
> > do
> > 
> > > taste tests with my students and they all choose different once that
> > > they
> > > like better than the others. Eric Toensmeier and I agree that the
> > > cultivated alnifolias are best in taste, so that may say something. I
> > 
> > also
> > 
> > > really like 'Regent' which is a stolonifera/alnifolia cross. They do
> > 
> > better
> > 
> > > with a little more water though. The wild ones are still worth growing,
> > 
> > but
> > 
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Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 21:38:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Koreen Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
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Great info too. We are in Zone 4, and we hit zone 5 in some areas, so it is 
warmer, though it does hit -50 below wind chill occasionally. Usually does 
not go that much below 0 F though. 
 
Koreen Brennan

www.growpermaculture.com
www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition


________________________________
 From: "dwoodard@becon.org" <dwoodard@becon.org>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org> 
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 5:11 AM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Drylands water capture question
 

Koreen, although South Dakota is a little warmer than most of the 
Canadian Prairies I have been surprised at some of the species 
mentioned, such as honey locust.

The shelterbelt program on the Canadian Prairies has amassed a lot of 
good information over the years. You may find it useful to have a look 
at

http://wwww.agr.gc.ca/shelterbelt

click on "Publications."

This was part of the Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Administration (PFRA).

Note that our neocon federal government is in the process of trashing 
this program and you should assume that the online and print resources 
will not last beyond 2013.

You might also look at

http://www.fruit.usask.ca


This Canadian nursery may be able to supply U.S. customers. In the past 
they have been wholesale only, but you might qualify due to volume:

Jeffries Nurseries
http://www.jeffriesnurseries.com

Their new "Gemini" apple looks interesting. The farm of the breeder, 
the late Art Coutts, at Unity, Saskatchewan is around the margin of 
Agriculture Canada zones 2a and 2b, a little colder than Saskatoon.

The Agriculture Canada zones are a little different from the USDA 
zones; search on
"Agriculture Canada Plant Hardiness Zones."

A couple of other Canadian prairie nurseries may be useful for 
reference only:

Alberta Nurseries and Seeds
http://www.gardenersweb.ca

Boughen Nurseries Valley River
http://www.boughennurseries.net


Probably you are aware of Lawyer Nurseries in Montana:
http://www.lawyernursery.com


For vegetable seed sources this may be useful:

http://www.seeds.ca/rl/rl.php


The book "Horticultural Horizons" by the late Frank Skinner (nurseryman 
and breeder) although a few decades old may provide some useful 
background.

I believe Skinner used Siberian Elm at Dropmore, Manitoba in 
Agriculture Canada zone 2.

St. Lawrence Nurseries at Potsdam, New York has an especially coldhardy 
honey locust and also a bur oak. Potsdam seems to have a somewhat more 
rigourous climate than Ottawa; a little to the south but considerably 
higher.
http://www.sln/potsdam.ny.us

Tissue cultured plants are sold to the U.S. by
http://www.prairietechpropagation.com

Some additional cultivar information can be found at
http://www.dnagardens.com

For the hardier gooseberries and currants, Whitman Farms (USA) has an 
unusually large selection:
http://whitmanfarms.com

Doug Woodard
St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada


On Thu, 25 Apr 2013 22:53:18 -0700 (PDT), Koreen Brennan 
<cory8570@yahoo.com> wrote:
> These are all fantastic ideas. We do have some inexpensive elm
> available via the NRD. Question, has anybody worked with honey locust
> in drylands? I love that tree, very useful and it has a good taproot,
> but it hasn't taken off and I'd like to see how I could assist it. 
>  
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>  From: Andrew Millison <amillison@gmail.com>
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 12:43 AM
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Drylands water capture question
>
>
> Koreen,
> I noticed on the Navajo and Hopi lands, very harsh high desert with 
> extreme
> wind, the only deciduous tree that grew in extremely degraded areas 
> is the
> Siberian Elm.

<snip>

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Subject: [permaculture] Tools, Dirt  & Literature
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Resources:
=========
Emelia Hazelip and Marc Bonfils writings, notes and diagrams, scans from
Soucayrous, Jamie Nicol, a permaculturist and notill gardener who lives
in France, I think he conducts workshops, possibly PDC's.

http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/
souscayrous
souscayrous' biological farming & permaculture collection
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/souscayrous
Collections
Emilia Hazelip's Synergistic Agriculture - Collected Papers
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/souscayrous/EmiliaHazelip-SynergisticAgriculture
Marc Bonfils' Agricultural Research
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/souscayrous/MarcBonfils-AgriculturalResearch
souscayrous' albums (the two above) on PicasaWeb
http://picasaweb.google.com/souscayrous

Other material, collected links, indexed, sortable webforum archives:

Compost Tea, Soil Foodweb, Soil Quality Discussion
-
Archive 1
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/SoilWiki/message-archives/composttea+soilfoodweb+soilquality/1/maillist.html
Archive 2
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/SoilWiki/message-archives/composttea+soilfoodweb+soilquality/2/maillist.html
Archive 3
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/SoilWiki/message-archives/composttea+soilfoodweb+soilquality/3/maillist.html
Archive 4
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/SoilWiki/message-archives/composttea+soilfoodweb+soilquality/4/maillist.html
Archive 5
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/SoilWiki/message-archives/composttea+soilfoodweb+soilquality/5/maillist.html

Soils In Biological Agriculture
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/permaculture/mailarchives/discussion-threads/soil-quality
Remineralize the Earth
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/orgfarm/remineralization/remineralization.selected-writings
Glomalin: Hiding Place for a Third of the World's Stored Soil Carbon -
ARS Bulletin
http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/sep02/soil0902.htm

PMAC Soil Quality Resources (excellent)
http://www.pmac.net/slqual.htm
remineralization
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/orgfarm/remineralization/
Soil Quality Links & Literature
Ecology Action
http://www.growbiointensive.org/
Ecology Action: SOIL
http://www.growbiointensive.org/biointensive/soil.html

Links, Bibliographies & Documents
Literature
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/orgfarm/literature/
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/orgfarm/literature/new/
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/orgfarm/literature/organic-farming.bibliography/
PC-reading-list.new111499       19-Nov-1999 00:18       2.8K
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/documents/PC-reading-list.new111499
PermacultureBookmarks-6242009.html      24-Jun-2009 13:44       92K
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/documents/PermacultureBookmarks-6242009.html
alternative-communities-booklist.html   19-Nov-1999 00:16       6.0K
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/documents/alternative-communities-booklist.html
alternative-communities-booklist.txt    19-Nov-1999 00:16       6.0K
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/documents/alternative-communities-booklist.txt
bamboo-sourcelist.txt   19-Nov-1999 00:16       2.5K
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/documents/bamboo-sourcelist.txt
beginning-beekeeping.txt        19-Nov-1999 00:16       4.2K
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/documents/beginning-beekeeping.txt
comments-on-patterning  19-Nov-2002 13:39       6.7K
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/documents/comments-on-patterning
constructed-wetlands.html       14-Sep-2002 22:35       80K
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/documents/constructed-wetlands.html
constructed-wetlands.txt        05-Sep-2002 01:57       62K
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/documents/constructed-wetlands.txt
fruiting-trees-for-permaculture-plantings.txt   19-Nov-1999 00:16 3.5K
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/documents/fruiting-trees-for-permaculture-plantings.txt
tractor-tillage-equipment+methods.txt   01-Nov-2002 20:11       23K
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/documents/tractor-tillage-equipment+methods.txt
recommendedreading-ag+pc.txt    20-Nov-2011 21:07       4.9K
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/documents/recommendedreading-ag+pc.txt
pawa-Permaculture-books-1.txt   19-Nov-1999 00:16       56K
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/documents/pawa-Permaculture-books-1.txt
pawa-Permaculture-books.txt     04-Mar-2003 02:22       459K
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/documents/pawa-Permaculture-books.txt
pawa-alternative-communities-booklist.txt  19-Nov-1999 00:16 6.0K
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/documents/pawa-alternative-communities-booklist.txt
permaculture-bibliography-1.txt 04-Mar-2003 02:01       116K
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/documents/permaculture-bibliography-1.txt

Gardening Hand Tool Sourcelist
Saturday, December 17, 2011 Revision
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/documents/gardening-hand-tools.faq
==================================================================Biointensive
 Gardening Guide and Farm & Garden Hand Tool Sourcelist
==================================================================Permanent 
Minimum-Till Biointensive Double-Dug Raised Bed Garden
Preparation and Handtool Information & Sourcelist
http://www.avantgeared.com/garden-and-farm-handtool-sourcelist-biointensive-gardening-guide
-
Biointensive Farming
https://sites.google.com/site/biointensivefarming/
-
Pictures of useful tools for gardeners:
https://plus.google.com/b/116100117925365792988/photos/116100117925365792988/albums/5706561605935598161




-
Avant Geared
http://www.avantgeared.com
AG Tools
lifetime hand tools for home, shop, farm, garden, travel and trekking
Avant: culturally or stylistically advanced  Geared: one outfitted with
proper gear
Avant Geared Google+ page
https://plus.google.com/b/116100117925365792988/116100117925365792988/about
(many pictures of handtools in galleries)
Avant Geared Blog
http://avantgeared.blogspot.com/
Avant Geared Group
http://groups.google.com/group/avant-geared