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  • From: Douglas Hinds <cedecor@gmx.net>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: [permaculture] Furthering the Movement (Was: Anti-catholicism, etc.)
  • Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 16:14:27 -0600


On 03/19/2013 Koreen Brennan wrote:
It may be that a reason the permaculture movement has not gotten further ...
is perhaps because of focusing on disagreements and what is wrong with the
other guy, instead of where we can agree and move forward together.

A valid point that never-the-less ignores the fundamental underlying issue: Agriculture is by nature a basically biological phenomena and by artifice, an important economic activity involving vested interests which successfully manipulate the socio-economic-political system in the USA and (to varying degrees) elsewhere.

Therefore: Although the principles, practices and goals of permaculture are consistent with the biological basis of agriculture and both environmental and animal (including human) health, the predominant agricultural production systems depend on concepts and inputs that favor the economic entities that benefit from their predominance in the marketplace for research funds, the mass media and public policy, all of which they have been able to dominate by spreading their ill-earned wealth and thereby influencing the outcome adversely for the values we here share.

That seems to be a human condition. Maybe we can come up with a design for
that.

The design has already been identified: Get money out of politics! In practice, that means:

1.- Preventing Corporations from participating in the political process by reserving that right for citizens only.

2.- Creating an autonomous Federal Electoral Institute (FEI) charging with organizing, operating and overseeing elections. Participation in the FEI will be limited to Political Parties and the requisites for creating a Political Party must be defined, based on the number of adherents that formally affiliate.

3.- The resources used by Candidates and Political Parties during Political Campaigns will be provided by the FEI with strict limitations on the amounts than can be spent.

3.- Prohibiting re-election or instituting strict term limits is required.

4.- Begin teaching Semantics from the third grade on. At present, the public lacks the intellectual capability of discriminating between objective reporting and self-interested persuasion.

5.- Eliminate the undemocratic and antiquated Electoral College and elect the POTUS via direct vote.

6.- Provide sufficient public funding for research designed to define biologically integrated Socially and Environmentally Responsible Farming Systems (SERFS) so that crops can be grown using technologies compatible with the environment and public health.

As things stand, both elections and the political process are controlled by vested interests with the cash to promote their versions of reality.

Whether political professionals and their cohorts are willing legislate themselves into a different political world is of course another matter. In any case, unless these things occur, things will not improve significantly.

In order for this to occur, a consensus must be reached by those already familiar with the concepts (i.e. here on this list), first. Whether even THAT is possible is what Koreen referred to.

As for Move On collaborating with the Tea Party: I am a member of Move On. I am not a member of the Tea Party and have my doubts as top what can be accomplished. The principal issue here is: What is the Proper Role of Government in Society and under the conditions that exist at present (as described above) it is understandable that many believe that Government must be removed from peoples lives because legislators are largely incompetent and self-serving.

The problem is cultural and educational. In that sense, the intellectual exercise of dealing with these persons is in itself positive but the as long as the socio-economic-political system remains dedicated to serving the interests of the wealthy rather than the public interest, the Tea Party's views are reasonable, if shortsighted.

Unfortunately, without a much needed Electoral Reform the USA is unlikely to arrive at a lasting solution IMO, and the Tea Party will continue to attract ignorant members of society.

Douglas

This was an inspiring piece of news in my email this AM:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/03/13/1193819/-Liberal-MoveOn-Founder-Tea-Party-Patriots-Co-Founder-Teaming-Up-Politicians-Beware



Koreen Brennan

www.growpermaculture.com
www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition


________________________________
From: Robert Waldrop <bwaldrop1952@att.net>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2013 4:45 PM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Anti-catholicism, was Re: The people of Tibet
need help now - Boing Boing
I never should have let my emotions get the best of me, because Lawrence is as
bigoted as it comes when it this kind of subject comes up, and I knew that
having subscribed here for a long time, and there's no possibility of rational
discussion with such people. I apologize for my lack of discretion and will
be
unsubscribe as it is evident from that the list owners comments that Catholics
are not welcome here and I don't want to intrude where I am not wanted.
Bob Waldrop
Oscar Romero Catholic Worker House
Oklahoma City






________________________________
From: Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Tue, March 19, 2013 3:33:09 PM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Anti-catholicism, was Re: The people of Tibet need
help now - Boing Boing

On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 3:55 PM, Robert Waldrop <bwaldrop1952@att.net>wrote:

I am not clicking on a link to read more anti-Catholic propaganda.

It is a bibilical saying worth reading. I attached the .jpg too. Something
about God gave humanity this world to live on and we should take care of it
and each other. That's what this Permaculture list is about.

I think the permaculture movement should not carry water for the
billionaires,

What a hoot.


but instead welcome Francis as an ally.

I did suggest previously that the Catholic Church welcome the permaculture
and natural agriculture communities as allies in the effort to feed and
lift up the poor, because we are good at that. Of course that will never
happen because there are pro choice elements in these communities. So it
goes.

Did Francis do all he could have during the Argentinian troubles? I
don't know,
I wasn't there. If you're going to quote Monbiot at me, you should
remember that

Wow. Some reply; talk about lacking observational abilities. That was a
pretty serious genocidal event in Argentina carried out by the
billionaire/military thuggery you despise, or at least you say you do, and
all you can say is you don't know, you were not there at the time; well who
was? I guess next you'll say 'its not my job'. Those unfortunate victims
were a carbon copy of the alternative movements of America, Europe and
elsewhere. They were probably pro choice too, an attribute that would have
sealed their fate as far as the church was concerned. The priests who sided
with the alternative movement were abandoned by the church and thrown to
the genocidal military thugs.
Some record. All over doctrine and $$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

Whatever he did or didn't do, my question is, if he did wrong, or didn't do
enough right, has he repented and changed his life and learned truths for
the
present? If he did right, has he learned from those lessons truths for the
present? In the meantime, on the world stage, he is saying some good
things,
quotes that we can use. We should be happy somebody, anybody, with some
authority is saying the things he is saying about caring for Creation and
standing with the poor. Instead, we join in the cry of the crowd "CRUCIFY
HIM,
CRUCIFY HIM!"

You must be joking. Sounds like typical fundamentalist boilerplate
propaganda.

I think this Creation you mention = DOCTRINE.
Creation = God gave us this world to live on and we need to take care of it
and all of its creatures
standing with the poor = make sure everyone is fed and that there are not
more mouths to feed than there is food to put in them....

And you know what that means don't you, Bob? Women's right to choose and
birth control, neither of which is acceptable in your camp. So what kind of
humanitarian are you?

LL
_______________________________________________






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