permaculture

[Douglas Hinds <cedecor@gmx.net>]

On 03/19/2013 Koreen Brennan wrote:
> It may be that a reason the permaculture movement has not gotten further ... 
> is perhaps because of focusing on disagreements and what is wrong with the 
> other guy, instead of where we can agree and move forward together.

A valid point that never-the-less ignores the fundamental underlying 
issue:  Agriculture is by nature a basically biological phenomena and by 
artifice, an important economic activity involving vested interests 
which successfully manipulate the socio-economic-political system in the 
USA and (to varying degrees) elsewhere.

Therefore:  Although the principles, practices and goals of permaculture 
are consistent with the biological basis of agriculture and both 
environmental and animal (including human) health, the predominant 
agricultural production systems depend on concepts and inputs that favor 
the economic entities that benefit from their predominance in the 
marketplace for research funds, the mass media and public policy, all of 
which they have been able to dominate by spreading their ill-earned 
wealth and thereby influencing the outcome adversely for the values we 
here share.

>   That seems to be a human condition. Maybe we can come up with a design for 
> that.

The design has already been identified:  Get money out of politics! In 
practice, that means:

1.- Preventing Corporations from participating in the political process 
by reserving that right for citizens only.

2.- Creating an autonomous Federal Electoral Institute (FEI) charging 
with organizing, operating and overseeing elections. Participation in 
the FEI will be limited to Political Parties and the requisites for 
creating a Political Party must be defined, based on the number of 
adherents that formally affiliate.

3.- The resources used by Candidates and Political Parties during 
Political Campaigns will be provided by the FEI with strict limitations 
on the amounts than can be spent.

3.- Prohibiting re-election or instituting strict term limits is required.

4.- Begin teaching Semantics from the third grade on.  At present, the 
public lacks the intellectual capability of discriminating between 
objective reporting and self-interested persuasion.

5.- Eliminate the undemocratic and antiquated Electoral College and 
elect the POTUS via direct vote.

6.- Provide sufficient public funding for research designed to define 
biologically integrated Socially and Environmentally Responsible Farming 
Systems (SERFS) so that crops can be grown using technologies compatible 
with the environment and public health.

As things stand, both elections and the political process are controlled 
by vested interests with the cash to promote their versions of reality.

Whether political professionals and their cohorts are willing legislate 
themselves into a different political world is of course another matter. 
In any case, unless these things occur, things will not improve 
significantly.

In order for this to occur, a consensus must be reached by those already 
familiar with the concepts (i.e. here on this list), first. Whether even 
THAT is possible is what Koreen referred to.

As for Move On collaborating with the Tea Party:  I am a member of Move 
On.  I am not a member of the Tea Party and have my doubts as top what 
can be accomplished.  The principal issue here is:  What is the Proper 
Role of Government in Society and under the conditions that exist at 
present (as described above) it is understandable that many believe that 
Government must be removed from peoples lives because legislators are 
largely incompetent and self-serving.

The problem is cultural and educational. In that sense, the intellectual 
exercise of dealing with these persons is in itself positive but the as 
long as the socio-economic-political system remains dedicated to serving 
the interests of the wealthy rather than the public interest, the Tea 
Party's views are reasonable, if shortsighted.

Unfortunately, without a much needed Electoral Reform the USA is 
unlikely to arrive at a lasting solution IMO, and the Tea Party will 
continue to attract ignorant members of society.

Douglas

> This was an inspiring piece of news in my email this AM:
>
> http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/03/13/1193819/-Liberal-MoveOn-Founder-Tea-Party-Patriots-Co-Founder-Teaming-Up-Politicians-Beware
>
>
>
>   
> Koreen Brennan
>
> www.growpermaculture.com
> www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
> www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition
>
>
> ________________________________
>   From: Robert Waldrop <bwaldrop1952@att.net>
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2013 4:45 PM
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Anti-catholicism, was Re: The people of Tibet 
> need help now - Boing Boing
>   
> I never should have let my emotions get the best of me, because Lawrence is as
> bigoted as it comes when it this kind of subject comes up, and I knew that
> having subscribed here for a long time, and there's no possibility of rational
> discussion with such people.  I apologize for my lack of discretion and will 
> be
> unsubscribe as it is evident from that the list owners comments that Catholics
> are not welcome here and I don't want to intrude where I am not wanted.
> Bob Waldrop
> Oscar Romero Catholic Worker House
> Oklahoma City
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com>
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Tue, March 19, 2013 3:33:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Anti-catholicism, was Re: The people of Tibet need
> help now - Boing Boing
>
> On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 3:55 PM, Robert Waldrop <bwaldrop1952@att.net>wrote:
>
> > I am not clicking on a link to read more anti-Catholic propaganda.
>
> It is a bibilical saying worth reading. I attached the .jpg too. Something
> about God gave humanity this world to live on and we should take care of it
> and each other. That's what this Permaculture list is about.
>
> > I think the permaculture movement should not carry water for the
> > billionaires,
> What a hoot.
>
>
> > but instead welcome Francis as an ally.
> >
> > I did suggest previously that the Catholic Church welcome the permaculture
> and natural agriculture communities as allies in the effort to feed and
> lift up the poor, because we are good at that. Of course that will never
> happen because there are pro choice elements in these communities. So it
> goes.
>
> > Did Francis do all he could have during the Argentinian troubles?  I
> don't know,
> > I wasn't there. If you're going to quote Monbiot at me, you should
> remember that
>
> Wow. Some reply; talk about lacking observational abilities. That was a
> pretty serious genocidal event in Argentina carried out by the
> billionaire/military thuggery you despise, or at least you say you do, and
> all you can say is you don't know, you were not there at the time; well who
> was? I guess next you'll say 'its not my job'.  Those unfortunate victims
> were a carbon copy of the alternative movements of America, Europe and
> elsewhere. They were probably pro choice too, an attribute that would have
> sealed their fate as far as the church was concerned. The priests who sided
> with the alternative movement were abandoned by the church and thrown to
> the genocidal military thugs.
> Some record. All over doctrine and $$$$$$$$$$$$$$.
>
> Whatever he did or didn't do, my question is, if he did wrong, or didn't do
> > enough right, has he repented and changed his life and learned truths for
> > the
> > present? If he did right, has he learned from those lessons truths for the
> > present?  In the meantime, on the world stage, he is saying some good
> > things,
> > quotes that we can use.  We should be happy somebody, anybody, with some
> > authority is saying the things he is saying about caring for Creation and
> > standing with the poor. Instead, we join in the cry of the crowd "CRUCIFY
> > HIM,
> > CRUCIFY HIM!"
> You must be joking. Sounds like typical fundamentalist boilerplate
> propaganda.

> I think this Creation you mention = DOCTRINE.
> Creation = God gave us this world to live on and we need to take care of it
> and all of its creatures
> standing with the poor =  make sure everyone is fed and that there are not
> more mouths to feed than there is food to put in them....

> And you know what that means don't you, Bob? Women's right to choose and
> birth control, neither of which is acceptable in your camp. So what kind of
> humanitarian are you?
>
> LL
> _______________________________________________