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  • From: Douglas Hinds <cedecor@gmx.net>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Cc: Robert Waldrop <bwaldrop1952@att.net>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] Anti-catholicism, was Re: The people of Tibet need help now - Boing Boing
  • Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 09:24:04 -0600


On 03/19/2013 02:45 PM, Robert Waldrop wrote:

I never should have let my emotions get the best of me,

Bob, you are as dedicated, experience and sincere as anyone I know in support of worthy causes. Personally, I prefer that to not having emotions. Furthermore, I too believe that it's a bit early to judge the performance of Pope Francis in his new (and obviously important) role as head of the Catholic Church.

As a permanent resident of a predominantly Catholic nation (although legally, Mexico has no official religion) who was baptized in 1976 (yes, Catholicism is one of the religions I subscribe to), I too was interested in determining who Cardinal Bergoglio (now Pope Francis) really is, and the opinions range considerably.

I can say that some apparently credible sources claim that some of the Catholic hierarchy DID collaborate with the Argentine Dictatorship but that Bergoglio was not one of them, and he himself has stated that he put himself at risk by protecting some of those that the dictatorship was looking for. Could he have done more? Probably so, and he could have gotten himself eliminated too, I suppose.

The point is this: This man is now the head of the Catholic Church and evidence regarding whatever he did or didn't do will be submitted continually from now on, and his past will be subject to further appraisal. But the important issue is his performance as Pope and no one is going to take that from him. It's not a good time for idle gossip, intransigent defense of any position without personal knowledge and far too soon for idle speculation. History is going to unfold and we will all know in due time what the true is (which as the Battle Hymn of the Republic declares, will keep marching on).

One sure thing: No one here is likely to have first hand knowledge of this issue and in any case, the best is yet to come, so I hope you're here to provide it or share it.

because Lawrence is as
bigoted as it comes when it this kind of subject comes up, and I knew that
having subscribed here for a long time, and there's no possibility of rational
discussion with such people.
Rather than bigoted, Lawrence (with whom I too have had heated historical differences and never-the-less consider him to be both a personal friend and a valuable asset to the biological agriculture movement), can take positions based on third-party opinions that shouldn't be considered "evidence" without a more substantial investigation of the issues, a trait many of us (and perhaps, Southerners in particular) seem to share; and he is a very active promoter and practitioner of access to information, not all of which can be adequately researched beforehand. I doubt that he has an axe to grind regarding this particular issue.
I apologize for my lack of discretion and will be
unsubscribe as it is evident from that the list owners comments that Catholics
are not welcome here and I don't want to intrude where I am not wanted.

Bob, believe me, you are wanted and needed here on this list (among others I currently subscribe to, like CGIN, sanet and all things sustainable and cooperative) and I am sure that Lawrence (as list owner) is not going do anything to impede your participation, so don't go. You are not alone here and your presence is beneficial. Furthermore, you and Lawrence (as well as myself and many others here) have more in common than in conflict.

Bob Waldrop
Oscar Romero Catholic Worker House
Oklahoma City

Good to hear from you, Bob (as always). Please continue to post. (Lawrence, will join me in that - right Lawrence)?

Your friend,

Douglas

________________________________
From: Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Tue, March 19, 2013 3:33:09 PM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Anti-catholicism, was Re: The people of Tibet need
help now - Boing Boing

On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 3:55 PM, Robert Waldrop <bwaldrop1952@att.net>wrote:

I am not clicking on a link to read more anti-Catholic propaganda.

It is a bibilical saying worth reading. I attached the .jpg too. Something
about God gave humanity this world to live on and we should take care of it
and each other. That's what this Permaculture list is about.

I think the permaculture movement should not carry water for the
billionaires,

What a hoot.


but instead welcome Francis as an ally.

I did suggest previously that the Catholic Church welcome the permaculture
and natural agriculture communities as allies in the effort to feed and
lift up the poor, because we are good at that. Of course that will never
happen because there are pro choice elements in these communities. So it
goes.

Did Francis do all he could have during the Argentinian troubles? I
don't know,
I wasn't there. If you're going to quote Monbiot at me, you should
remember that

Wow. Some reply; talk about lacking observational abilities. That was a
pretty serious genocidal event in Argentina carried out by the
billionaire/military thuggery you despise, or at least you say you do, and
all you can say is you don't know, you were not there at the time; well who
was? I guess next you'll say 'its not my job'. Those unfortunate victims
were a carbon copy of the alternative movements of America, Europe and
elsewhere. They were probably pro choice too, an attribute that would have
sealed their fate as far as the church was concerned. The priests who sided
with the alternative movement were abandoned by the church and thrown to
the genocidal military thugs.
Some record. All over doctrine and $$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

Whatever he did or didn't do, my question is, if he did wrong, or didn't do
enough right, has he repented and changed his life and learned truths for
the
present? If he did right, has he learned from those lessons truths for the
present? In the meantime, on the world stage, he is saying some good
things,
quotes that we can use. We should be happy somebody, anybody, with some
authority is saying the things he is saying about caring for Creation and
standing with the poor. Instead, we join in the cry of the crowd "CRUCIFY
HIM,
CRUCIFY HIM!"

You must be joking. Sounds like typical fundamentalist boilerplate
propaganda.
I think this Creation you mention = DOCTRINE.
Creation = God gave us this world to live on and we need to take care of it
and all of its creatures
standing with the poor = make sure everyone is fed and that there are not
more mouths to feed than there is food to put in them....
And you know what that means don't you, Bob? Women's right to choose and
birth control, neither of which is acceptable in your camp. So what kind of
humanitarian are you?

LL
_





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