permaculture

[Douglas Hinds <cedecor@gmx.net>]

On 03/19/2013 02:45 PM, Robert Waldrop wrote:

> I never should have let my emotions get the best of me,

Bob, you are as dedicated, experience and sincere as anyone I know in 
support of worthy causes.  Personally, I prefer that to not having 
emotions. Furthermore, I too believe that it's a bit early to judge the 
performance of Pope Francis in his new (and obviously important) role as 
head of the Catholic Church.

As a permanent resident of a predominantly Catholic nation (although 
legally, Mexico has no official religion) who was baptized in 1976 (yes, 
Catholicism is one of the religions I subscribe to), I too was 
interested in determining who Cardinal Bergoglio (now Pope Francis) 
really is, and the opinions range considerably.

I can say that some apparently credible sources claim that some of the 
Catholic hierarchy DID collaborate with the Argentine Dictatorship but 
that Bergoglio was not one of them, and he himself has stated that he 
put himself at risk by protecting some of those that the dictatorship 
was looking for.  Could he have done more? Probably so, and he could 
have gotten himself eliminated too, I suppose.

The point is this:  This man is now the head of the Catholic Church and 
evidence regarding whatever he did or didn't do will be submitted 
continually from now on, and his past will be subject to further 
appraisal.  But the important issue is his performance as Pope and no 
one is going to take that from him.  It's not a good time for idle 
gossip, intransigent defense of any position without personal knowledge 
and far too soon for idle speculation.   History is going to unfold and 
we will all know in due time what the true is (which as the Battle Hymn 
of the Republic declares, will keep marching on).

One sure thing:  No one here is likely to have first hand knowledge of 
this issue and in any case, the best is yet to come, so I hope you're 
here to provide it or share it.

> because Lawrence is as
> bigoted as it comes when it this kind of subject comes up, and I knew that
> having subscribed here for a long time, and there's no possibility of rational
> discussion with such people.
Rather than bigoted, Lawrence (with whom I too have had heated 
historical differences and never-the-less consider him to be both a 
personal friend and a valuable asset to the biological agriculture 
movement), can take positions based on third-party opinions that 
shouldn't be considered "evidence" without a more substantial 
investigation of the issues, a trait many of us (and perhaps, 
Southerners in particular) seem to share; and he is a very active 
promoter and practitioner of access to information, not all of which can 
be adequately researched beforehand.  I doubt that he has an axe to 
grind regarding this particular issue.
>   I apologize for my lack of discretion and will be
> unsubscribe as it is evident from that the list owners comments that Catholics
> are not welcome here and I don't want to intrude where I am not wanted.

Bob, believe me, you are wanted and needed here on this list (among 
others I currently subscribe to, like CGIN, sanet and all things 
sustainable and cooperative) and I am sure that Lawrence (as list owner) 
is not going do anything to impede your participation, so don't go. You 
are not alone here and your presence is beneficial. Furthermore, you and 
Lawrence (as well as myself and many others here) have more in common 
than in conflict.

> Bob Waldrop
> Oscar Romero Catholic Worker House
> Oklahoma City

Good to hear from you, Bob (as always).  Please continue to post. 
(Lawrence, will join me in that - right Lawrence)?

Your friend,

Douglas

> ________________________________
> From: Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com>
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Tue, March 19, 2013 3:33:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Anti-catholicism, was Re: The people of Tibet need
> help now - Boing Boing
>
> On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 3:55 PM, Robert Waldrop <bwaldrop1952@att.net>wrote:
>
> > I am not clicking on a link to read more anti-Catholic propaganda.
>
> It is a bibilical saying worth reading. I attached the .jpg too. Something
> about God gave humanity this world to live on and we should take care of it
> and each other. That's what this Permaculture list is about.
>
> > I think the permaculture movement should not carry water for the
> > billionaires,
> What a hoot.
>
>
> > but instead welcome Francis as an ally.
> >
> > I did suggest previously that the Catholic Church welcome the permaculture
> and natural agriculture communities as allies in the effort to feed and
> lift up the poor, because we are good at that. Of course that will never
> happen because there are pro choice elements in these communities. So it
> goes.
>
> > Did Francis do all he could have during the Argentinian troubles?  I
> don't know,
> > I wasn't there. If you're going to quote Monbiot at me, you should
> remember that
>
> Wow. Some reply; talk about lacking observational abilities. That was a
> pretty serious genocidal event in Argentina carried out by the
> billionaire/military thuggery you despise, or at least you say you do, and
> all you can say is you don't know, you were not there at the time; well who
> was? I guess next you'll say 'its not my job'.  Those unfortunate victims
> were a carbon copy of the alternative movements of America, Europe and
> elsewhere. They were probably pro choice too, an attribute that would have
> sealed their fate as far as the church was concerned. The priests who sided
> with the alternative movement were abandoned by the church and thrown to
> the genocidal military thugs.
> Some record. All over doctrine and $$$$$$$$$$$$$$.
>
> Whatever he did or didn't do, my question is, if he did wrong, or didn't do
> > enough right, has he repented and changed his life and learned truths for
> > the
> > present? If he did right, has he learned from those lessons truths for the
> > present?  In the meantime, on the world stage, he is saying some good
> > things,
> > quotes that we can use.  We should be happy somebody, anybody, with some
> > authority is saying the things he is saying about caring for Creation and
> > standing with the poor. Instead, we join in the cry of the crowd "CRUCIFY
> > HIM,
> > CRUCIFY HIM!"
> You must be joking. Sounds like typical fundamentalist boilerplate
> propaganda.
> I think this Creation you mention = DOCTRINE.
> Creation = God gave us this world to live on and we need to take care of it
> and all of its creatures
> standing with the poor =  make sure everyone is fed and that there are not
> more mouths to feed than there is food to put in them....
> And you know what that means don't you, Bob? Women's right to choose and
> birth control, neither of which is acceptable in your camp. So what kind of
> humanitarian are you?
>
> LL
> _