permaculture

[Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>]

Paul, 

I am with you on this one. I cannot fathom why some of us attack other of us 
for taking money in exchange for the priceless value that permaculture 
offers, and then wondering why we aren't getting anywhere. A billion dollars 
might be enough, if permaculturists controlled it, to save the planet. So why 
would we feel we need to avoid money? It's an energy that is considered by 
most people to be "the" most legitimate exchange medium that there is. While 
we educate and remind people about what real value and real wealth actually 
is, and what other choices they have, it would be nothing but helpful for us 
to control whatever medium of exchange allows us to regenerate environments, 
or at least check the harm, to as great a degree as possible.  We could spend 
our time and energy arguing and cutting each other over petty stuff, or we 
could stay focused and work together on the bigger needs and picture - how 
this planet is doing as an organism, and how cultures
 are doing, as patterns. 

I agree that surplus in the system only becomes pollution if it isn't used to 
feed the system. It isn't the billion dollars that is polluting. It is when 
it is used to harm or stifle the feeding process that it becomes polluting. 
This is a really important distinction that seems to get overlooked by too 
many people and they start avoiding energy instead of capturing, storing and 
channeling it, which is the second principle of permaculture. I consider 
anybody who tries to tell me what I shouldn't be doing with money to be 
operating unconsciously and not using basic permaculture design principles - 
they have obviously not bothered to observe (the first principle) what I am 
actually doing with it, or to assess the true value of the output (yield - 
third principle) that I am getting from that. Those individuals usually do 
not accept feedback about their judgments either, a violation of yet another 
permaculture principle. I think it is safe to say that they
 are pseudo permaculturists, and are using permaculture to run their own 
agenda, whatever it is. 
 
Koreen Brennan

www.growpermaculture.com
www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition


________________________________
 From: paul wheaton <paul@richsoil.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org> 
Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2012 4:01 PM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Toward Financial Permaculture: New Farms in the 
OldSystem
 
Yesterday we recorded a podcast review of Geoff Lawton's Introduction
to Permaculture DVD.  In the beginning was a bit about the ethics.
And I had to wonder:  where are there examples of people doing
permaculture, but because of the lack of ethics, things didn't turn
out.  Things were bad.   The person is still calling it permaculture,
but it is now awful due to the lack of ethics.

So then that situation can have "care of the earth; care of the
people; return of surplus to the first two" and everything becomes
right as rain.

I have yet to fathom even one realistic scenario.

I do see people using the three ethics (and mostly, twisted
variations) as a weapon to get other people to comply with ...
whatever.  But in those scenarios, my impression has been that the bad
guys are the ones screaming the ethics, while the decent folks are
being screamed at.

Granted, there are bad guys out there doing bad things.  And most of
the worst have never ever heard of permaculture.  And I feel like a
bit of ethics could help the situation.   But I doubt I will ever get
a chance to talk about ethics with them.

As for billionaires:  I guess I'm in a weird position where it doesn't
bother me that somebody has a billion dollars lying around.  What
bothers me is if a person got a billion dollars through unethical
behavior.   I usually think of John Stewart.  I doubt he has a billion
dollars - but he is far closer to a billion dollars than I am.  I
don't see him as a bad person.  I see that he did a cool thing and got
a lot of money for it.

I suppose there are many schools of thought around the permaculture
ethics.  And around the billionaires thing.   I suppose it is possible
that I am even the only person that is keen on permaculture that feels
this way on these two topics.  I am grateful for the opportunity to
express my position.
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On 12/30/2012 4:01 PM, paul wheaton wrote:
> Yesterday we recorded a podcast review of Geoff Lawton's Introduction
> to Permaculture DVD.  In the beginning was a bit about the ethics.

Read Mollison's Permaculture Designer's Manual. This is where it all
begins. Lawton is a student of a student of Mollison.

> And I had to wonder:  where are there examples of people doing
> permaculture, but because of the lack of ethics, things didn't turn
> out.  Things were bad.   The person is still calling it permaculture,
> but it is now awful due to the lack of ethics.

That is ridiculous. Is this some sort of object lesson? It bears little
relation to the reality of, for example, the majority of the subscribers
to this list, who are essentially field workers, doing that their own
way in their own time, usually without any consideration of
remuneration. They take something out that they need and put something
back for others to use. This is the principle that made the Web/Internet
what it is, essentially open source information sharing within an open
society. How many billionaires participate in this system? Often is it
is a case of need that drives people to embrace the Permaculture three
ethics. They work, they make sense and they are important. One needs to
broadminded, think things through deeply
and be open to sources of inspiration.

> So then that situation can have "care of the earth; care of the
> people; return of surplus to the first two" and everything becomes
> right as rain.

> I have yet to fathom even one realistic scenario.

You write it off completely without a good brainstorming session?

> I do see people using the three ethics (and mostly, twisted
> variations) as a weapon to get other people to comply with ...
> whatever.  But in those scenarios, my impression has been that the bad
> guys are the ones screaming the ethics, while the decent folks are
> being screamed at.

Ridiculous, divisive and nonessential point.
You need to meet more people practicing and professionally involved with
permaculture. Take a good look at Andrew Millison's work. He is a
brilliant, multi-talented young man conducting many PDC courses and is
involved in local, community-based projects and activism.

> Granted, there are bad guys out there doing bad things.  And most of
> the worst have never ever heard of permaculture.  And I feel like a
> bit of ethics could help the situation.   But I doubt I will ever get
> a chance to talk about ethics with them.

How lucky you are to not have to deal with them.

> As for billionaires:  I guess I'm in a weird position where it doesn't
> bother me that somebody has a billion dollars lying around.  What
> bothers me is if a person got a billion dollars through unethical
> behavior.

As I see it the thing about an increasing number of billionaires and
multi-millionaries is that you do not often read about any of them using
their money to do really incredible things.


1) money donated for medical research may be an exception to this

2) why not take large sums of money and buy prime farmland with adequate
water resources and favorable climate at locations around the USA. On
them create communities of like-minded people with the cornerstones, the
establishment of centers for the study and development of permaculture
and natural agriculture.
Examples: Arcosanti, The Shakers, The Amish and Mennonites, The Farm and
other intentional communities.

> I suppose there are many schools of thought around the permaculture
> ethics.  And around the billionaires thing.   I suppose it is possible
> that I am even the only person that is keen on permaculture that feels
> this way on these two topics.  I am grateful for the opportunity to
> express my position.

I, for one, am grateful to hear your opinion.

LL