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Re: [permaculture] Fast growing nitro fixers, semi tropics

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  • From: Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] Fast growing nitro fixers, semi tropics
  • Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 04:29:15 -0700 (PDT)
Casaurina is terribly invasive here. It drowns out everything else, sucks up
the water in the everglades, and nothing else grows in Casaurina stands. I
mean literally, nothing. Not one weed. The needles and how close the pines
grow doesn't allow anything else to grow. This is why I'm careful with what I
bring into this system. 

We use moringa liberally. I plant many moringa wherever I go. It is a very
strong tree for this area, but it is not nitrogen fixing. It is a dynamic
accumulator though. I haven't been able to bring myself to chop it for
biomass, or use it for that because it has so many other incredible uses. But
it does grow fast, from cuttings and seed both, so it is really a viable
source for biomass. It also doesn't get that big, so is perfect in many ways.
This tree really is a miracle tree on many fronts. It is my favorite
permaculture tree here. It does freeze back, but comes right back and gets 20
feet tall or taller in one season. An amazing life giving tree!!!

Tamarind grows here in certain neighborhoods, it will freeze out in others.
Same with Ice Cream Bean. We literally have zone changes from block to block
because of the marine influence and the jet stream which reaches all the way
down Florida sometimes. Carob likes it more dry than here - Mediterranean is
perfect. But I want to try to grow some anyway, because I love it. Tipi Tipu
gets too big for most backyards here, but could be used for chop and drop. A
couple of people are using it here. 

I've used some of the Zone 4 plants you've mentioned. Again, I'm planting on
an indian reservation and will not bring in anything that might alter their
ecosystem, out of aggressiveness. It is just not my call to do that on
someone else's soveriegn land. I'll check out everything you mentioned - I'm
not familiar with a few of them. 


Koreen Brennan

www.growpermaculture.com
www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition


________________________________
From: Neil Bertrando <neilbertrando@gmail.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2012 12:19 AM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Fast growing nitro fixers, semi tropics

I forgot about this one which is also a list topper with many functions

Moringa oleifera and other Moringa sp.  not legumes but fast carbon
pathways and high nutrition value
http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/duke_energy/Moringa_oleifera.html
http://moringafarms.com/
http://www.mobot.org/gradstudents/olson/moringahome.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moringa_oleifera
http://www.winrock.org/fnrm/factnet/factpub/FACTSH/moringa.htm
http://agroforestry.net/scps/Moringa_specialty_crop.pdf
http://www.worldagroforestrycentre.org/sea/products/afdbases/af/asp/SpeciesInfo.asp?SpID=1169

an permaculture article on ecologcal applications of moringa and mulberry
with sites in florida mentioned
http://www.perennialsolutions.org/cuba-mass-planting-moringa-and-mulberry

cheers,
Neil

On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 12:08 AM, Neil Bertrando
<neilbertrando@gmail.com>wrote:

> If I were to put in sub-tropical to tropical long term canopy tree
> legumes, these would be at the top of my list:
>
> carob, tamarind, ice cream bean, tipuana tipu.  mainly because I like to
> eat the first three and would like to get experience with the fourth after
> hearing about it.
>
> I'm surprised it gets so cold in Florida, what is your location?  my
> understanding was that zone 9 was down to 20 F?  microclimate
> possibilities?  perhaps you can get some good varieties from NAFEX
> http://www.nafex.org/ or the rare fruit tree associations.
> http://www.crfg.org/ florida rare fruit http://www.rarefruit.org/
>
>
> I love the work Julia Morton did in Fruits of the Warm Climates.  I'm
> guessing there is lots more out there now, but haven't been researching
> tropics in a while.
> Carob, Ceratonia siliqua:
> http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/morton/carob.html
>
> tamarind, tamarindus indica
> http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/morton/tamarind.html
>
> Ice Cream Bean, Inga edulis
> http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/duke_energy/inga_edulis.html
>
> tipuana tipu
> http://www.public.asu.edu/~camartin/plants/Plant%20html%20files/tipuanatipu.html
>
> Another FAO doc.
> http://www.fao.org/docrep/003/T0632E/T0632E02.htm
>
> suggests: prosopis sp as well.
>
> Black Locust??? native to Southeast N. America.
>
> casaurina pines? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casuarina  Awesome
> non-rotting building material too.
>
> more for understory? baptisia, lespedeza, ceanothus, tephrosia, senna,
> desmodium, perennial peanut, crotolaria, guessing there's many more
>
> have used most of the species noted in the FAO doc you shared and liked
> them in Hawai'i.  never had an issue with spreading.  if you like, cut them
> before seed formation.
>
> have used cassia trees not sure on the species, birds absolutely loved
> them so even without N-fixing nodules, the import to the system was
> substantial.
>
> other links to check out with some species lists
>
> http://science.jrank.org/pages/3895/Legumes-Native-legumes-North-America.html
> http://www.winrock.org/fnrm/factnet/factpub/factsh.htm
>
> i've some palownia planted in zone 5-6. no experience with zone 4.  there
> i would definitely use Robinia, Elaeagnus, Gleditsia, and consider Sophora,
> alnus, gymnocladus, maackia, and cladrastis  as overstory, many mid-
> understory, shepherdia, caragana, elaeagnus, baptisia, Hippophae, cercis,
> alnus, maybe amorpha canescens, all dependent on water availability and
> soil type etc....
> I might even go with rhamnus although I know people are sensitive about
> buckthorn in the midwest.
>
> perhaps a useful source is oikos tree crops
> http://www.oikostreecrops.com/store/home.asp
> and lawyer seed and plant nursery http://www.lawyernursery.com/  worth
> getting the seed list/catalog many more species than bare roots
>
> best of luck
> hope this helps,
> Neil
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 8:17 PM, venaurafarm
> <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>wrote:
>
>> On 10/18/2012 8:38 PM, John D'hondt wrote:
>>
>> > Another new bad thing is an explosion of a new species, the New Zealand
>> > flatworm, (Arthurdendyus triangulatus) that is known to reduce earthworm
>> > populations below detectable levels. The situation is dire. We even
>> noticed
>> > 36 immature worms eating a big slug (Arion sp.) and one half grown worm
>> > holding a life Tipula fly (big!) on the ground and preventing this from
>> > talking off.
>> > Interesting times.
>>
>> I would say that you have the making of a great new nature video, an
>> action packed thriller...to say the least.
>>
>> ......birds eating most of the worms in raised beds causing them to sink
>> and become more compacted.....hawks eating the birds doing this
>> then flatworms moving in and decimating earthworm populations all over
>> again....  what a scenario...document this in a video and sell the dvd
>> for $25 each - upload trailer to youtube, let it go viral, make lots of
>> money, buy villa on the cote d'azur, retire kick back and relax eat
>> truffle quiche .............
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>
>
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>From cory8570@yahoo.com Wed Oct 24 07:48:59 2012
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Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 04:48:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
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Thank you much for this, good info about what to avoid as well as what to
use. We do use pigeon pea and cowpea liberally and I love them too. Pigeon
pea is a beautiful plant and grows very fast here. If it gets enough food, it
can be a huge bush (I've seen it go 10 feet) in one season. I haven't looked
into Albizia or Tagasaste - these are good leads which I can look at further.
I do see Albizia around here, but not Tagasaste. I like acacia farnesiana
which is a native. It is very thorny which makes a good living fence when we
need that and it doesn't take over the yard like the aggressive elephant ear
acacia. 

I have used honey locust liberally at Pine Ridge, but the non thorny version
which is less aggressive than the one with thorns. It is one of the few
things that can take hold and survive up there without a lot of help and it
can be used as a fodder and wood tree (makes fence posts that don't rot for
many years, good firewood, etc, something they need a lot of up there). I
would think twice about using it in Florida. But I've never seen either black
or honey locust so not sure if it is too hot for them or there are diseases
or what. 
 
Koreen Brennan

www.growpermaculture.com
www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition


________________________________
From: Robyn Francis <robyn@permaculture.com.au>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2012 6:27 PM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Fast growing nitro fixers, semi tropics

I live in humid subtropics and have some winter frosts.

The legumes I've had greatest success with are:

Perennial pigeon pea (Cajanus cajan) great shrub legume, can plant quite
closely, terrific chop-and-drop spp to build up mulch, and nurse plant for
establishing other trees. Is affected by severe frost, however if densely
planted they send out new shoots from lower stem and branches in spring.
Nodulate prolifically so good N-fixers. Only live 3-4 years.

Trees:
Tipuanu tipu - grows well but can grow quite large - I have these as an
emergent canopy over my subtropical food forest. See a rare volunteer
seedling popping up here and there, but are not invasive - or maybe the
wallabies keep them in check.

Albizzia julibrissin are great smaller tree legume and very frost hardy (seen
them growing in Europe) and have had no evidence of self seeding or invasive
potential here.

Cow pea as a summer annual legume are quite prolific.

I don't recommend using dolichos or desmodium app (too invasive), also honey
locust is a shocking weed in our climate here where folk have grown it -
spreads prolifically especially along water courses as an impenetrable
vicious thorny thicket. I've also eliminated Inga edulis as a tree legume in
my system, it self seeds prolifically and the birds and fruit bats spread
seed into nearby rainforest areas.

Have you looked into Tagasaste (Chamaecytisus palmensis) ? It doesn't like
our heavy clay but grows well in more sandy soils in subtropics and temperate
areas.

Robyn


On 18/10/2012, at 11:05 PM, Cory Brennan wrote:

>  Just found this resource for nitro fixing fodder legumes, wonderful!
>http://www.fao.org/ag/AGP/AGPC/doc/Publicat/Gutt-shel/x5556e00.htm#Contents
>
> Would love to hear back from people on experience with legumes in any
> climate similar to Florida - sugar sand soils, sometimes extreme wet/dry,
> temperatures hot, humid in summer, often freezing in winter (down to 15
> degrees or below in many areas). I am looking to plant many fast growing
> multi use legume trees and want to make sure I am picking the best
> varieties. Leucaena, gliricidia, sesbania, are considered "invasive" in
> Florida. I am trying to find info on less invasive cultivars (though I
> agree with Toby Hemenway's assessments on "opportunists" I hesitate to be
> the one to personally bring thousands of opportunist trees into this
> relatively delicate ecosystem). Leucaena lan (I believe this is lanceolata)
> is considered not invasive but I have not found any of this cultivar.
>
> The native sweet acacia has gnarly thorns but is beautiful and works well
> where thorns are not a problem.
>
> What experience do people have with the non nodulating nitro fixers like
> cassia, etc, as far as actually putting nitrogen into the soils? I have not
> used them enough to really know how they do.
>
> On a different note, I'm still trying to determine the nitro fixing
> capabilities of gleditsia triacanthos in temperate climates.
> 
> Koreen Brennan
>
> www.growpermaculture.com
> www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
> www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition
> _______________________________________________
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From: Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
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Subject: Re: [permaculture] AP and black soldier fly?
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It is a great idea for use of hog poop (among many other uses that it has!).
Another way to raise them is with kitchen garbage which they love. At Growing
Power, they have a long trench that they put kitchen scraps in (which they
get in bulk from restaurants). The larvae eat, and when ready to turn to
flies, crawl up a 35 degree inclined plane, fall into a gutter and crawl out
of that into a bucket at the end. When chickens were in there and the bucket
was not, I was told, they would stand underneath with their mouths open,
waiting for the flies to drop. LOL. Funny picture!  It is one of the more
sustainable ideas for feeding fish in a commercial aquaculture/aquaponics
setting. 
 
Koreen Brennan

www.growpermaculture.com
www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition


________________________________
From: venaurafarm <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2012 7:49 PM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] AP and black soldier fly?

On 10/23/2012 12:49 PM, georg parlow wrote:
> I came across another nice thing to combine with an aquaponic system:
> black soldier fly farming. Especially in low density systems (with
> fish way below the maximum stocking rate, mainly for safety reasons,
> or where fish is not part of the diet) it is great, I have been told.
> The 'tea' is highly nutrien rich, and can be directly added to the
> water (after it leaves the fish tank), with great results. The mature
> lavae are a high protein high calcium fish food.
>
> http://www.blacksoldierflyfarming.com/
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermetia_illucens
>
> Experiences with these grubs, anyone?

My friend Mike submitted this to the discussion, crossposting for him:

"When I have a slow day I'll dig up some stuff I have on BSF larva. It's
the best fish food there is, assaying higher than anchovies in protein,
minerals and essential oils. And it's environmentally benign: you don't
scarf up scarce anchovies, depriving wild fish of their food source to
run your fish farm. Instead, you grow BSF where there were none before.

It's also about the safest fly to grow. People are naturally leery about
encouraging flies, but this one never goes inside. It doesn't compete
with humans for human food. It's inoffensive and carries no disease.
Plus, it's easy to harvest.

The process I learned was to put slatted floors in the hog barns. That
way you could separate the urine, which passed through the slats, from
the solid feces.

Collect the escaping methane to run a gas dryer, and dry the feces until
they become an odorless black crumbly solid. In the hand it feels a
little like humus, only more grainy.

Inoculate your pile of crap with some black soldier flies. They will
love the stuff and lay eggs on it. The infants (larva) are born there
and convert the hog poop into protein and fat very efficiently. Then
they follow their instincts to climb up, looking forward to a time when
they develop wings and can fly away.

But yours don't. Instead, you set an inclined plane at the top of your
pile. They climb up it and fall over the high side, into a collecting
basin. What you end up with in your basin is virtually pure bugs. Very
tasty, if you're a salmon fry.

It's potentially a million dollar business. I have no idea why lots of
people aren't doing this. Instead they still get rid of their hog poop
by the sprayfield method. Smelly, unpleasant and unprofitable.

Feel free to add this to your list."

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Subject: Re: [permaculture] Fast growing nitro fixers, semi tropics
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Yes, we do have wild tamarind here, totally different, as you note. Freezes
out though, in my area. Which is not always bad; keeps me from having to chop
it if I'm using it for biomass minaly. Does anybody have data on Faidherbia
albida? 

This is an interesting list:

http://www.echonet.org/content/SeedBank/558


ECHO is an incredible resource, I should use them more! Right in my backyard.
They do grow aggressive trees but chop and drop them before they seed. I
can't guarantee that will happen everywhere I want to plant tho..
 
Koreen Brennan

www.growpermaculture.com
www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition


________________________________
From: Neil Bertrando <neilbertrando@gmail.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2012 11:03 PM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Fast growing nitro fixers, semi tropics

good to know.

not bad overstory trees to include even if not support sp. though.

in this case, I would lower the planting ratios to true n-fixing overstory
at initial planting, but might use them as my permanent overstory and be
more selective with variety.

besides nodule formation, growth rate and above ground tissue analysis of
C:N are useful for fnal analysis and use plans.

where I have seen and eaten Tamarind, they seem to prefer 'drier' ground,
so siting with drainage like on a swale mound would be my first choice in a
wetter area like florida.

Carob as well I would strive for drier microclimates in humid areas, but
still throw it into the mix as a trial. or ask locals for a reference
point.

I always appreciate any other research or data or anectodes.

some quick links

carob
http://greenharvest.com.au/SeedOrganic/FruitTrees/CarobGrowingInformation.html
http://www.underutilized-species.org/documents/Publications/carob_tree.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceratonia_siliqua
http://www.worldagroforestry.org/treedb2/AFTPDFS/Ceratonia_siliqua.pdf

Tamarind
http://www.cropsforthefuture.org/publication/Manuals/tamarind%20manual.pdf
this is an interesting find
http://hort.ufl.edu/database/documents/pdf/tree_fact_sheets/lysbaha.pdf the
cuban tamarind that grows wild in Florida totally different genus according
to this...
http://www.worldagroforestry.org/downloads/publications/PDFs/BC07320.PDF
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamarind

tossing pinion and walnut seeds in the ground to prep for the wet season
today.
best of luck in your works,
neil


On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 8:38 AM, Jason Gerhardt
<jasongerhardt@gmail.com>wrote:

> Both Carob and Tamarind are known to not form nodules and are therefore
> suspect in their N-fixing abilities. Along with Honey Locust, they may have
> fungal associates, but I have not seen any research into the later two
> species in that regard.
>
> --
> Jason Gerhardt
> Designer and Educator
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Missoula Montana - November 9-11, 2012

 

INLAND NORTHWEST PERMACULTURE CONFERENCE

October 20 Update,

 

Early-bird price extended to October 25.

STILL ONLY $60!

 

We have extended the early bird price of $60 for this
fantastic, 3-day event until October 25. 
After October 25 the price is $80 which is still a great deal. Students
are half price. The UM University Center can accommodate 500 people so we
won’t
turn anyone away at the door.

 

Lots to learn, lots to
share.

Everyone a teacher.
Everyone a student.

 

Get new ideas for your career, home, homestead, farm, city,
and county.

Permaculture design can be applied to any scale of land or
endeavor. 

 

Permaculture wants to change the world.

 

Permaculture’s three ethics are

1. Care of the Earth

2. Care of the People

3. Dispersal of surplus towards those ends. 

 

 Obviously that
is not the world we currently live in. 


 

At the small scale, permaculture can help us reach our
individual goals of right livelihood, a nice place to live and strong local
communities; but on the larger scale of things it can help the world reach
towards these three ethics. 

 

So join us on November 9-11 to explore how permaculture can
help serve our personal needs and our global needs.  

 

Here are some exciting presenters that have signed up since our last update.
We are
now up to 46 presenters and more in the works. Check out our website as we
have
just done a bunch of updating on the presenters section. Updating will
continue
as info comes in. We will be right down to the wire.

 

* Rick Gold, Anti-GMO group, Missoula, MT

* Mark Harmon, Energy Systems, Colville, WA

* Noah Jackson, Forest Voices, Missoula, MT

* Susan Jamerson, Certified Permaculture Designer, Missoula,
MT

* Daniel Kirchof, Twin Eagles Wilderness School, Sandpoint,
ID

* Darla Torrez, Tierra Madre Midwifery, Missoula, MT

* Mark Vander Mere, Bad Goat Forestry Products, Missoula, MT

 

Our Friday Field Trip day is firming up as well as our
Saturday evening Panel on “exploring common ground between permaculture,
organic farming, Biodynamic, Holistic Management, agroforestry and other
ecological methods of food production”. The contra dance with the Celtic
Knots
band will be a lallapaloozer for sure!

 

Please help us spread the
word.

Forward this email, Let’s
go viral.

Who do you know who would
want to be at this historic event?

Let’s boogie!

 

http://inlandnorthwestpermaculture.com



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Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 08:25:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myrica


Yes, Myrica fixes nitrogen

 
Koreen Brennan

www.growpermaculture.com
www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition


________________________________
From: Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2012 11:19 AM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Fast growing nitro fixers, semi tropics

On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 2:07 PM, Jason Gerhardt
<jasongerhardt@gmail.com>wrote:

> Cory,
>
> Members of the Myricaceae family (wax-myrtles) fix nitrogen too.
>
> Is myrica pennsylvanica, wax myrtle or bayberry a nitrogen fixer?
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>From cory8570@yahoo.com Wed Oct 24 11:32:38 2012
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Subject: Re: [permaculture] AP and black soldier fly?
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which fish have black soldier fly larvae been evaluated for? 
 
Koreen Brennan

www.growpermaculture.com
www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition


________________________________
From: venaurafarm <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2012 7:49 PM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] AP and black soldier fly?

On 10/23/2012 12:49 PM, georg parlow wrote:
> I came across another nice thing to combine with an aquaponic system:
> black soldier fly farming. Especially in low density systems (with
> fish way below the maximum stocking rate, mainly for safety reasons,
> or where fish is not part of the diet) it is great, I have been told.
> The 'tea' is highly nutrien rich, and can be directly added to the
> water (after it leaves the fish tank), with great results. The mature
> lavae are a high protein high calcium fish food.
>
> http://www.blacksoldierflyfarming.com/
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermetia_illucens
>
> Experiences with these grubs, anyone?

My friend Mike submitted this to the discussion, crossposting for him:

"When I have a slow day I'll dig up some stuff I have on BSF larva. It's
the best fish food there is, assaying higher than anchovies in protein,
minerals and essential oils. And it's environmentally benign: you don't
scarf up scarce anchovies, depriving wild fish of their food source to
run your fish farm. Instead, you grow BSF where there were none before.

It's also about the safest fly to grow. People are naturally leery about
encouraging flies, but this one never goes inside. It doesn't compete
with humans for human food. It's inoffensive and carries no disease.
Plus, it's easy to harvest.

The process I learned was to put slatted floors in the hog barns. That
way you could separate the urine, which passed through the slats, from
the solid feces.

Collect the escaping methane to run a gas dryer, and dry the feces until
they become an odorless black crumbly solid. In the hand it feels a
little like humus, only more grainy.

Inoculate your pile of crap with some black soldier flies. They will
love the stuff and lay eggs on it. The infants (larva) are born there
and convert the hog poop into protein and fat very efficiently. Then
they follow their instincts to climb up, looking forward to a time when
they develop wings and can fly away.

But yours don't. Instead, you set an inclined plane at the top of your
pile. They climb up it and fall over the high side, into a collecting
basin. What you end up with in your basin is virtually pure bugs. Very
tasty, if you're a salmon fry.

It's potentially a million dollar business. I have no idea why lots of
people aren't doing this. Instead they still get rid of their hog poop
by the sprayfield method. Smelly, unpleasant and unprofitable.

Feel free to add this to your list."

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On 10/24/2012 11:32 AM, Cory Brennan wrote:
> which fish have black soldier fly larvae been evaluated for?

Salmon? I would think most fresh water fish, maybe even the most
temperamental. There are many Google resources on this subject to be
had. A careful search will probably provide lists of fish that will eat
BSFL.



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