permaculture

[Neil Bertrando <neilbertrando@gmail.com>]

a switch back to temperate climate resources

http://tcpermaculture.blogspot.com/2011/05/plants-nitrogen-fixers.html
http://www.tcpermaculture.blogspot.com/2012/09/pioneer-species-for-temperate-climate.html
http://tcpermaculture.com/plants.html

On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 8:47 PM, Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I hear you Neil, and I give that same speech to students and anyone else
> who will listen, about kudzu, water hyacinth, casaurina or other members of
> the "dirty dozen invasives". Huge energy opportunities from these useful
> plants - they all have multiple uses. We even found a use for the dreaded
> goatweed at Pine Ridge. It's sold for $10 a pound in some places, as an
> aphrodisiac! Lol. I appreciate hearing others' experiences too.
>
> Koreen Brennan
>
> www.growpermaculture.com
> www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
> www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition
>
>
> ________________________________
>  From: Neil Bertrando <neilbertrando@gmail.com>
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2012 2:05 PM
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Fast growing nitro fixers, semi tropics
>
> another quick thought,
>
> overabundance of Casaurina => opportunity to build many long-lasting,
> rot-resistant fences, trellises, and pole structures.  Maybe even a
> business where you get paid to remove it and paid to install the products
> at the other end, he he.  If it's already there, you don't even need to
> plant it, just harvest which will thin the stands and let light in for
> other species hopefully.  I fully agree that a monoculture is not
> desireable, and sometimes I wonder if its a sign that human or animal
> disturbance is needed to set a new trajectory for that system.
>
> cheers,
> neil
>
> On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 10:49 AM, Neil Bertrando <neilbertrando@gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > Thanks for the feedback and discussion about your approaches and
> > rationale.  I really appreciate that Permaculture facilitates so many
> > techniques and strategies and is adaptable to social and cultural
> contexts.
> >
> > I've been doing most of my work in arid climates recently and am finding
> > that if plants aren't aggressive, they often don't make it.  I'm often
> > looking for plants that exhibit some rampancy or are on the semi-rampant
> > edge.  I find that some of my favorite and most useful plants have been
> > labeled noxious locally, siberian elm for example ulmus pumila.
> > http://www.na.fs.fed.us/fhp/invasive_plants/weeds/siberian-elm.pdf  a
> > fast growing hardwood, coppicable, good for firewood, timber, fodder,
> > edible seeds, drought and salt tolerant, etc.  My experience in
> > Permaculture is leading me to constantly question my relationships with
> the
> > living world and organisms to continually strive for mutual benefits.  I
> > can understand how this will also lead to excluding some species from a
> > specific plant pallete due to aggressiveness or other non-desireable
> > qualities and am excited to learn more about people's real world
> experience
> > with various species in different ecologies.
> >
> > cheers,
> > Neil
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 4:48 AM, Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Thank you much for this, good info about what to avoid as well as what
> to
> >> use. We do use pigeon pea and cowpea liberally and I love them too.
> Pigeon
> >> pea is a beautiful plant and grows very fast here. If it gets enough
> food,
> >> it can be a huge bush (I've seen it go 10 feet) in one season. I haven't
> >> looked into Albizia or Tagasaste - these are good leads which I can
> look at
> >> further. I do see Albizia around here, but not Tagasaste. I like acacia
> >> farnesiana which is a native. It is very thorny which makes a good
> living
> >> fence when we need that and it doesn't take over the yard like the
> >> aggressive elephant ear acacia.
> >>
> >> I have used honey locust liberally at Pine Ridge, but the non thorny
> >> version which is less aggressive than the one with thorns. It is one of
> the
> >> few things that can take hold and survive up there without a lot of help
> >> and it can be used as a fodder and wood tree (makes fence posts that
> don't
> >> rot for many years, good firewood, etc, something they need a lot of up
> >> there). I would think twice about using it in Florida. But I've never
> seen
> >> either black or honey locust so not sure if it is too hot for them or
> there
> >> are diseases or what.
> >>
> >> Koreen Brennan
> >>
> >> www.growpermaculture.com
> >> www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
> >> www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition
> >>
> >>
> >> ________________________________
> >>  From: Robyn Francis <robyn@permaculture.com.au>
> >> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> >> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2012 6:27 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Fast growing nitro fixers, semi tropics
> >>
> >> I live in humid subtropics and have some winter frosts.
> >>
> >> The legumes I've had greatest success with are:
> >>
> >> Perennial pigeon pea (Cajanus cajan) great shrub legume, can plant quite
> >> closely, terrific chop-and-drop spp to build up mulch, and nurse plant
> for
> >> establishing other trees. Is affected by severe frost, however if
> densely
> >> planted they send out new shoots from lower stem and branches in spring.
> >> Nodulate prolifically so good N-fixers. Only live 3-4 years.
> >>
> >> Trees:
> >> Tipuanu tipu - grows well but can grow quite large - I have these as an
> >> emergent canopy over my subtropical food forest. See a rare volunteer
> >> seedling popping up here and there, but are not invasive - or maybe the
> >> wallabies keep them in check.
> >>
> >> Albizzia julibrissin are great smaller tree legume and very frost hardy
> >> (seen them growing in Europe) and have had no evidence of self seeding
> or
> >> invasive potential here.
> >>
> >> Cow pea as a summer annual legume are quite prolific.
> >>
> >> I don't recommend using dolichos or desmodium app (too invasive), also
> >> honey locust is a shocking weed in our climate here where folk have
> grown
> >> it - spreads prolifically especially along water courses as an
> impenetrable
> >> vicious thorny thicket. I've also eliminated Inga edulis as a tree
> legume
> >> in my system, it self seeds prolifically and the birds and fruit bats
> >> spread seed into nearby rainforest areas.
> >>
> >> Have you looked into Tagasaste (Chamaecytisus palmensis) ? It doesn't
> >> like our heavy clay but grows well in more sandy soils in subtropics and
> >> temperate areas.
> >>
> >> Robyn
> >>
> >>
> >> On 18/10/2012, at 11:05 PM, Cory Brennan wrote:
> >>
> >> >  Just found this resource for nitro fixing fodder legumes, wonderful!
> >>
> http://www.fao.org/ag/AGP/AGPC/doc/Publicat/Gutt-shel/x5556e00.htm#Contents
> >> >
> >> > Would love to hear back from people on experience with legumes in any
> >> climate similar to Florida - sugar sand soils, sometimes extreme
> wet/dry,
> >> temperatures hot, humid in summer, often freezing in winter (down to 15
> >> degrees or below in many areas). I am looking to plant many fast growing
> >> multi use legume trees and want to make sure I am picking the best
> >> varieties. Leucaena, gliricidia, sesbania, are considered "invasive" in
> >> Florida. I am trying to find info on less invasive cultivars (though I
> >> agree with Toby Hemenway's assessments on "opportunists" I hesitate to
> be
> >> the one to personally bring thousands of opportunist trees into this
> >> relatively delicate ecosystem). Leucaena lan (I believe this is
> lanceolata)
> >> is considered not invasive but I have not found any of this cultivar.
> >> >
> >> > The native sweet acacia has gnarly thorns but is beautiful and works
> >> well where thorns are not a problem.
> >> >
> >> > What experience do people have with the non nodulating nitro fixers
> >> like cassia, etc, as far as actually putting nitrogen into the soils? I
> >> have not used them enough to really know how they do.
> >> >
> >> > On a different note, I'm still trying to determine the nitro fixing
> >> capabilities of gleditsia triacanthos in temperate climates.
> >> >
> >> > Koreen Brennan
> >> >
> >> > www.growpermaculture.com
> >> > www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
> >> > www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition
> >> > _______________________________________________
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