permaculture

[Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>]

I think every time we sheet mulch with a variety of locally available 
materials, it is a grand experiment right? I am trying to create good soils 
with locally sourced waste stream and plant life as much as possible. It 
isn't always easy to get it right! I am interested in dynamic accumulators 
too, and was fascinated by the earlier discussion about sea minerals which I 
am surrounded by on the Pinellas peninsula. I have six beds and using six 
different sheet mulch approaches to see what happens. If I had more time, I 
would include more variety - the base is(for me)  easily acquired oak mulch 
for all of the beds. 
 
Koreen Brennan

www.growpermaculture.com
www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition


________________________________
 From: venaurafarm <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org> 
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 6:57 PM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Fast growing nitro fixers, semi tropics
 
On 10/18/2012 4:41 PM, John D'hondt wrote:
>
> I find it a bit unusual that you talk only about nitrogen fixing plants
> Cory. I have alweays thought about nitrogen fixing bacteria for I have seen
> bacteria on their own without plants fix nitrogen. As long as they had a
> source of decomposing carbon and some supply of phosphate that is.
> Also on our grazing fields we see a competition between clovers (mostly
> white clover because this stays quite low to the ground where other clovers
> grow higher and are eaten by ruminants a lot faster) and grasses. Grasses
> need nitrogen to do well and compete out the clover eventually. When we put
> some rock phosphate out the clovers boom again.
>
> All that said, I know well that plant species provide nitrogen fixing
> bacteria with root exudates to make them thrive and do their business. But
> again, phosphate in the soil is essential for the nitrogen fixing process.
> (as are oxygenation of the soil and many trace elements)

To mine phosphate and trace minerals and make them available to plants, 
amongst other things, you need fungi in the soil and a source of raw 
minerals for them to feed on, i.e. quarry siltation pond fines or finely 
pulverized rock dusts, preferably a variety of them.

A cool scheme to improve soil fertility, seasonally:
(John D'hondt, could you evaluate this plan?)
At a time when this is appropriate apply rock dusts and manures and/or 
compost to raised beds; tilth these amendments into the soil lightly so 
as not to disturb vital soil dwelling microorganisms, especially fungi, 
earthworms, various insects, invertibrates, etc. Use a spade fork or 
even a digging fork. Follow this procedure with a planting of red 
clover. The clover will exude certain substances that the fungi will use
that will stimulate them to extract or mine, beyond normal levels, trace 
minerals and phosphate from the rock dusts. The manure you use does not 
have to be fully decomposed. Next season apply, as needed, extra 
amendments to boost soil fertility and balance nutrients and minerals. 
These amendments can include any or all of the following:
azomite, aragonite, high calcium limestone, dolomitic limestone, 
greensand, more quarry rock dusts, rock phosphate and colloidal 
phosphate. Somewhere in my online archives I have a few documents on 
research that demonstrated the beneficial connection between red clover, 
rock dusts (or native soil) and soil fungi. I guess the method I have 
suggested should be fine tuned to ensure the stability of soil bacteria 
and soil fungi populations and that the bacteria do not consume too many 
of the fungi, needed to interact with the clover. I thought that you 
could accomplish two things at once, add nitrogen
in the form of manure and/or compost, add minerals in the form of rock 
dusts and the clover cover crop would extract valuable phosphate from 
the rock particles. The rock dusts will feed the bacteria and fungi that 
will break the manure and compost down and the red clover will assist 
the fungi in further extraction of minerals and some phosphate from the 
rock dusts while the manure and compost will provide acids that will 
dissolve the rock dusts making it easier for bacteria to use and fungi 
to use with enhanced ability to extract minerals from the rock dusts 
with additional stimulus from the clover exudates enabling enhanced 
fungal mineral mining. This would be a grand experiment.
Other amendments could also be added such as fish meal, fish emulsion, 
crab meal, alfalfa meal or compost, all sorts of herbs and even compost 
teas of one sort or another.

LL

_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
message archives:  http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture/
Google message archive search:
site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
>From venaurafarm@bellsouth.net  Thu Oct 18 20:15:01 2012
Return-Path: <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
X-Original-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Received: by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix, from userid 20217)
        id CE947E8CFC; Thu, 18 Oct 2012 20:15:01 -0400 (EDT)
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on 
mailman1.ibiblio.org
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=5.0 testsºYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED,
        DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,
        T_FRT_POSSIBLE autolearn=ham version=3.3.1
Received: from nm39-vm2.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com
        (nm39-vm2.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com [98.136.217.93])
        by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73D9EE8CF6
        for <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>;
        Thu, 18 Oct 2012 20:14:59 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from [98.137.12.61] by nm39.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP;
        19 Oct 2012 00:14:58 -0000
Received: from [67.195.14.39] by tm6.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP;
        19 Oct 2012 00:14:58 -0000
Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp109.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP;
        19 Oct 2012 00:14:58 -0000
X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 629351.19583.bm@smtp109.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com
X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3
X-YMail-OSG: swpGfY0VM1lnVMUHBm2e6WR0MD1MiwuV6QFWhZmyaIbNUUJ
        j4rfbt7NmnWnqxIz24ywVZlgc.WSJtLfYZLB8rRhgdM9YPykIp8DqIYZaHD.
        Spqo5hnDQcWRe9tOJPny4MKGM_xjhCg8xjsx.HoZo1O7ml0we7Qp0vh8rn3U
        fALnWSdgkXiagFBr4RM0M3UySYvzTk91eendthkeGCoJK3WDsfnJn0PywqK9
        q6tDeb8cDEYCq7_nOH6NMdvnn_9lIqG_IqeIfqsrKGL7HuNRwY2G5KuWIGj3
        45L4CfyyJkJE_0ZoBXwvKo3fZxU7G.lJ6tsYZhwhVwRHKRiEOcfz4GqZpiL5
        z8r7zsdU4RB.il4AAoPmN2GxEFssJ7OJ2eSm.zdP7FFDWg1_Dz4LzcXv.jSS
        3JyuFcMECQdnuUlubXD7iMWm469mod9Y2hwhB.7CPYEgC2d9JOxj23f8tgAf
        wDqbVJ2hsqImQWJihHaFKcRqr9bqCBemeob.X2A--
X-Yahoo-SMTP: c5cR1iqswBAL69WHluJFuhWbBKf0NOdLgGLeT6yCzJZKlgZ.16E-
Received: from [192.168.1.8] (venaurafarm@65.5.197.216 with plain)
        by smtp109.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with SMTP;
        18 Oct 2012 17:14:58 -0700 PDT
Message-ID: <50809B92.9040508@bellsouth.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 20:15:14 -0400
From: venaurafarm <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1;
        rv:16.0) Gecko/20121010 Thunderbird/16.0.1
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
References: <1350561954.58139.YahooMailNeo@web161006.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
        <EBF5BD404C2A44A8961C754D92E65009@Targadc5fefe82d>
        <5080895D.3010505@bellsouth.net>
        <1350604704.32718.YahooMailNeo@web161001.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
In-Reply-To: <1350604704.32718.YahooMailNeo@web161001.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Fast growing nitro fixers, semi tropics
X-BeenThere: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Id: permaculture <permaculture.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
        <mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture>
List-Post: <mailto:permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
        <mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 00:15:01 -0000

On 10/18/2012 7:58 PM, Cory Brennan wrote:
> I think every time we sheet mulch with a variety of locally available
> materials, it is a grand experiment right? I am trying to create good
> soils with locally sourced waste stream and plant life as much as
> possible. It isn't always easy to get it right! I am interested in

You use what you have available. Just make sure it is as natural as
poossible; if yard waste, no herbicides or pesticides in it.

> dynamic accumulators too, and was fascinated by the earlier
> discussion about sea minerals which I am surrounded by on the
> Pinellas peninsula. I have six beds and using six different sheet
> mulch approaches to see what happens. If I had more time, I would
> include more variety - the base is(for me)  easily acquired oak mulch
> for all of the beds.

You can hardly do better than oak mulch; I assume shredded oak (debark)
bark. Live oak? If so lumber from that tree is a rare and valuable
commodity; it is the hardest oak and maybe the hardest wood grown in the
US. Blocks of it can be used to make wood planes, Japanese type, with
inserted iron & chipbreaker, cut on pull stroke. Your friends could make
a living manufacturing these plane dai's from live oak; purchase the
metal parts from a reliable source, also, tool handles, chisel handles,
garden dibbles, turned pieces, art objects stained with natural dyes.
Lots of possibilities for generating income while on break from managing
your seawater aquaponics systems :-)

Do you have access to seaweed? If so it could be fed to livestock and
turned into fertilizer. Duckweed is really excellent fertilizer.

Back to the permaculture list at ibiblio virtual permaculture natural
farm...

LL

> On 10/18/2012 4:41 PM, John D'hondt wrote:
>>
>> I find it a bit unusual that you talk only about nitrogen fixing
>> plants Cory. I have alweays thought about nitrogen fixing bacteria
>> for I have seen bacteria on their own without plants fix nitrogen.
>> As long as they had a source of decomposing carbon and some supply
>> of phosphate that is. Also on our grazing fields we see a
>> competition between clovers (mostly white clover because this stays
>> quite low to the ground where other clovers grow higher and are
>> eaten by ruminants a lot faster) and grasses. Grasses need nitrogen
>> to do well and compete out the clover eventually. When we put some
>> rock phosphate out the clovers boom again.
>>
>> All that said, I know well that plant species provide nitrogen
>> fixing bacteria with root exudates to make them thrive and do their
>> business. But again, phosphate in the soil is essential for the
>> nitrogen fixing process. (as are oxygenation of the soil and many
>> trace elements)
>
> To mine phosphate and trace minerals and make them available to
> plants, amongst other things, you need fungi in the soil and a source
> of raw minerals for them to feed on, i.e. quarry siltation pond fines
> or finely pulverized rock dusts, preferably a variety of them.
>
> A cool scheme to improve soil fertility, seasonally: (John D'hondt,
> could you evaluate this plan?) At a time when this is appropriate
> apply rock dusts and manures and/or compost to raised beds; tilth
> these amendments into the soil lightly so as not to disturb vital
> soil dwelling microorganisms, especially fungi, earthworms, various
> insects, invertibrates, etc. Use a spade fork or even a digging fork.
> Follow this procedure with a planting of red clover. The clover will
> exude certain substances that the fungi will use that will stimulate
> them to extract or mine, beyond normal levels, trace minerals and
> phosphate from the rock dusts. The manure you use does not have to be
> fully decomposed. Next season apply, as needed, extra amendments to
> boost soil fertility and balance nutrients and minerals. These
> amendments can include any or all of the following: azomite,
> aragonite, high calcium limestone, dolomitic limestone, greensand,
> more quarry rock dusts, rock phosphate and colloidal phosphate.
> Somewhere in my online archives I have a few documents on research
> that demonstrated the beneficial connection between red clover, rock
> dusts (or native soil) and soil fungi. I guess the method I have
> suggested should be fine tuned to ensure the stability of soil
> bacteria and soil fungi populations and that the bacteria do not
> consume too many of the fungi, needed to interact with the clover. I
> thought that you could accomplish two things at once, add nitrogen in
> the form of manure and/or compost, add minerals in the form of rock
> dusts and the clover cover crop would extract valuable phosphate
> from the rock particles. The rock dusts will feed the bacteria and
> fungi that will break the manure and compost down and the red clover
> will assist the fungi in further extraction of minerals and some
> phosphate from the rock dusts while the manure and compost will
> provide acids that will dissolve the rock dusts making it easier for
> bacteria to use and fungi to use with enhanced ability to extract
> minerals from the rock dusts with additional stimulus from the clover
> exudates enabling enhanced fungal mineral mining. This would be a
> grand experiment. Other amendments could also be added such as fish
> meal, fish emulsion, crab meal, alfalfa meal or compost, all sorts of
> herbs and even compost teas of one sort or another.
>
> LL