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  • From: Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] Fast growing nitro fixers, semi tropics
  • Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 20:47:33 -0700 (PDT)

I hear you Neil, and I give that same speech to students and anyone else who
will listen, about kudzu, water hyacinth, casaurina or other members of the
"dirty dozen invasives". Huge energy opportunities from these useful plants -
they all have multiple uses. We even found a use for the dreaded goatweed at
Pine Ridge. It's sold for $10 a pound in some places, as an aphrodisiac! Lol.
I appreciate hearing others' experiences too. 
 
Koreen Brennan

www.growpermaculture.com
www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition


________________________________
From: Neil Bertrando <neilbertrando@gmail.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2012 2:05 PM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Fast growing nitro fixers, semi tropics

another quick thought,

overabundance of Casaurina => opportunity to build many long-lasting,
rot-resistant fences, trellises, and pole structures.  Maybe even a
business where you get paid to remove it and paid to install the products
at the other end, he he.  If it's already there, you don't even need to
plant it, just harvest which will thin the stands and let light in for
other species hopefully.  I fully agree that a monoculture is not
desireable, and sometimes I wonder if its a sign that human or animal
disturbance is needed to set a new trajectory for that system.

cheers,
neil

On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 10:49 AM, Neil Bertrando
<neilbertrando@gmail.com>wrote:

> Thanks for the feedback and discussion about your approaches and
> rationale.  I really appreciate that Permaculture facilitates so many
> techniques and strategies and is adaptable to social and cultural contexts.
>
> I've been doing most of my work in arid climates recently and am finding
> that if plants aren't aggressive, they often don't make it.  I'm often
> looking for plants that exhibit some rampancy or are on the semi-rampant
> edge.  I find that some of my favorite and most useful plants have been
> labeled noxious locally, siberian elm for example ulmus pumila.
> http://www.na.fs.fed.us/fhp/invasive_plants/weeds/siberian-elm.pdf  a
> fast growing hardwood, coppicable, good for firewood, timber, fodder,
> edible seeds, drought and salt tolerant, etc.  My experience in
> Permaculture is leading me to constantly question my relationships with the
> living world and organisms to continually strive for mutual benefits.  I
> can understand how this will also lead to excluding some species from a
> specific plant pallete due to aggressiveness or other non-desireable
> qualities and am excited to learn more about people's real world experience
> with various species in different ecologies.
>
> cheers,
> Neil
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 4:48 AM, Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Thank you much for this, good info about what to avoid as well as what to
>> use. We do use pigeon pea and cowpea liberally and I love them too. Pigeon
>> pea is a beautiful plant and grows very fast here. If it gets enough food,
>> it can be a huge bush (I've seen it go 10 feet) in one season. I haven't
>> looked into Albizia or Tagasaste - these are good leads which I can look at
>> further. I do see Albizia around here, but not Tagasaste. I like acacia
>> farnesiana which is a native. It is very thorny which makes a good living
>> fence when we need that and it doesn't take over the yard like the
>> aggressive elephant ear acacia.
>>
>> I have used honey locust liberally at Pine Ridge, but the non thorny
>> version which is less aggressive than the one with thorns. It is one of the
>> few things that can take hold and survive up there without a lot of help
>> and it can be used as a fodder and wood tree (makes fence posts that don't
>> rot for many years, good firewood, etc, something they need a lot of up
>> there). I would think twice about using it in Florida. But I've never seen
>> either black or honey locust so not sure if it is too hot for them or there
>> are diseases or what.
>>
>> Koreen Brennan
>>
>> www.growpermaculture.com
>> www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
>> www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>  From: Robyn Francis <robyn@permaculture.com.au>
>> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2012 6:27 PM
>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Fast growing nitro fixers, semi tropics
>>
>> I live in humid subtropics and have some winter frosts.
>>
>> The legumes I've had greatest success with are:
>>
>> Perennial pigeon pea (Cajanus cajan) great shrub legume, can plant quite
>> closely, terrific chop-and-drop spp to build up mulch, and nurse plant for
>> establishing other trees. Is affected by severe frost, however if densely
>> planted they send out new shoots from lower stem and branches in spring.
>> Nodulate prolifically so good N-fixers. Only live 3-4 years.
>>
>> Trees:
>> Tipuanu tipu - grows well but can grow quite large - I have these as an
>> emergent canopy over my subtropical food forest. See a rare volunteer
>> seedling popping up here and there, but are not invasive - or maybe the
>> wallabies keep them in check.
>>
>> Albizzia julibrissin are great smaller tree legume and very frost hardy
>> (seen them growing in Europe) and have had no evidence of self seeding or
>> invasive potential here.
>>
>> Cow pea as a summer annual legume are quite prolific.
>>
>> I don't recommend using dolichos or desmodium app (too invasive), also
>> honey locust is a shocking weed in our climate here where folk have grown
>> it - spreads prolifically especially along water courses as an impenetrable
>> vicious thorny thicket. I've also eliminated Inga edulis as a tree legume
>> in my system, it self seeds prolifically and the birds and fruit bats
>> spread seed into nearby rainforest areas.
>>
>> Have you looked into Tagasaste (Chamaecytisus palmensis) ? It doesn't
>> like our heavy clay but grows well in more sandy soils in subtropics and
>> temperate areas.
>>
>> Robyn
>>
>>
>> On 18/10/2012, at 11:05 PM, Cory Brennan wrote:
>>
>> >  Just found this resource for nitro fixing fodder legumes, wonderful!
>> http://www.fao.org/ag/AGP/AGPC/doc/Publicat/Gutt-shel/x5556e00.htm#Contents
>> >
>> > Would love to hear back from people on experience with legumes in any
>> climate similar to Florida - sugar sand soils, sometimes extreme wet/dry,
>> temperatures hot, humid in summer, often freezing in winter (down to 15
>> degrees or below in many areas). I am looking to plant many fast growing
>> multi use legume trees and want to make sure I am picking the best
>> varieties. Leucaena, gliricidia, sesbania, are considered "invasive" in
>> Florida. I am trying to find info on less invasive cultivars (though I
>> agree with Toby Hemenway's assessments on "opportunists" I hesitate to be
>> the one to personally bring thousands of opportunist trees into this
>> relatively delicate ecosystem). Leucaena lan (I believe this is lanceolata)
>> is considered not invasive but I have not found any of this cultivar.
>> >
>> > The native sweet acacia has gnarly thorns but is beautiful and works
>> well where thorns are not a problem.
>> >
>> > What experience do people have with the non nodulating nitro fixers
>> like cassia, etc, as far as actually putting nitrogen into the soils? I
>> have not used them enough to really know how they do.
>> >
>> > On a different note, I'm still trying to determine the nitro fixing
>> capabilities of gleditsia triacanthos in temperate climates.
>> >
>> > Koreen Brennan
>> >
>> > www.growpermaculture.com
>> > www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
>> > www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > permaculture mailing list
>> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
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>From neilbertrando@gmail.com Thu Oct 25 12:45:37 2012
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Subject: [permaculture] ferrocement tank resources
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Hi there,

I recently did some internet research on ferrocement tank design and
construction. thought I'd share it here.

I first heard about ferrocement tanks through Art Ludwig's book Water
Storage http://oasisdesign.net/water/storage/index.htm
floor plan http://oasisdesign.net/water/storage/WSp110-112.pdf

Here's some additional resources I found useful. some are much more
comprehensive than others.
How to build
http://www.aprovecho.net/2009/09/constructing-a-ferrocement-tank/
Design and construction http://www.unhcr.org/49d089a62.html
cover
http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/sci/eng/research/structures/dtu/pubs/tr/rwh/tr-rwh04.pdf
short diy design http://ecobites.com/diy-recycling-projects/736?task=view
comprehensive manual for 1000 gal tank
http://www.crsprogramquality.org/storage/pubs/watsan/bangapinoy.pdf
the wildfell tank
http://www.permaculture.org/nm/images/uploads/The_Wildfell_Ferrocement_Tank_by_Patrick_McGinn.pdf
awesome book with history and many tank size construction designs
http://www.samsamwater.com/library/Book7_Water_from_roofs.pdf
short design brief
http://www.lboro.ac.uk/well/resources/technical-briefs/36-ferrocement-water-tanks.pdf
design practicum and install photos
http://mcedc.colorado.edu/sites/default/files/111118%20Barbee%20Practicum%20Report%20BPD%20Rainwater%20Catchment%20(1).pdf
lots of various water articles at this site
http://www.samsamwater.com/library.php

cheers,
Neil




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