permaculture

["John D'hondt" <dhondt@eircom.net>]

There are a few general comments possible Dieter :
- humus is formed by microorganisms in the soil direct or in the gut of 
earthworms, that does not really count as having gone through an animal 
organism imo
- the big difference between organic material made from plants or from 
animal manure is that plants are generally much less sensitive than animals 
in case of severe mineral deficiencies. To do well animals must have all 
nutrioents in abundance and their manure will then also be richer  in 
nutrients than pure plant compost.
Especially ruminants will forage as far and wide as possible to get 
everything they need. If your flock is healthy their manure should be 
superior to compost made from plant waste from the very spot you are going 
to use that compost again.
-if you don't have animals you could perhaps use seaweed or other sea 
minerals incorporated in compost. Or you could do both.
john

Subject: Re: [permaculture] Humus


> The reason I ask is that I’m interested in the question of whether there 
> is any qualitative difference in soil or in the plants growing in that 
> soil depending on whether the soil is fed with organic matter from an 
> animal or from a plant source.  But the issue is probably more or less 
> academic because, even if we don’t use animal manure, most plant materials 
> are broken down by soil organisms including earthworms, microbes and many 
> others.  Therefore, it is probably impossible in real-life soil to find 
> any plant material that has not gone through an animal organism.
>
> Cheers,
> Dieter
>
>
> --- On Tue, 11/15/11, John D'hondt <dhondt@eircom.net> wrote:
>
> > From: John D'hondt <dhondt@eircom.net>
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] Humus
> > To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Date: Tuesday, November 15, 2011, 7:44 PM
> >
> > Sorry Dieter,
> >
> > The only reference I have at hand would be from Odums,
> > "Fundamentals of
> > ecology" a book that is never far from my hand. As Lawrence
> > knows, I am very
> > bad in keeping track of everything I read otherwise. I
> > spend an hour or two
> > on the PC every day during which time I read hundreds of
> > pages. I simply
> > can't keep track of sources for that would mean keeping
> > many megabytes every
> > day.
> > I tend to remember ideas but forget about autor's names or
> > where they wrote
> > it.
> > As I said I did some little bit of work on humus in another
> > life and found
> > that Odum was correct in stating that it does not matter
> > much which
> > vegetable feedstock is used in humus production. Of course
> > the mineral
> > content will differ but the general shape and form of the
> > humic acid
> > molecules is the same.
> > As to animal manures, I definitely remember articles by
> > archeologists who
> > excavated medieval middens and found proof of which animals
> > were being kept
> > from the chemical analysis of the black stuff in the pits.
> > In one case pigs
> > and in another site sheep. To find out more archeological
> > articles are where
> > to look. Can't say more for my memory is not that good.
> > John
> >
> > > -- On Mon, 11/14/11, John D'hondt <dhondt@eircom.net>
> > wrote:
> > >> It is almost impossible to find out afterwards
> > whether broccoli
> > >> heads or rice bran was used in humus production.
> > >> In contrast, when animal manures are included it
> > is still
> > >> possible even after a hundred years (and often
> > much more) to
> > >> determine exactly which animal contributed to the
> > fertility.
> > >
> > > Do you have any reference for this?
> > >
> > > Dieter
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