permaculture

["John D'hondt" <dhondt@eircom.net>]

Just want to throw up the fact that many landscapes that are regarded has 
very desirable and pure environment were made through some form of animal 
husbandry. In my native country there were "heaths", heather landscapes that 
could only be kept alive by expensive grazing. Stop the grazing and it fast 
developes into a pine wood that is a good bit poorer in animal and bird 
species.
john

> The choice is not limited to agriculture or foraging. There is a 3rd 
> choice (if not more). Stable horticultural societies (gardeners, not 
> farmers) existed for many thousands of years but were ignored by 
> anthropologists until recently, considered just a brief transition state 
> to agriculture. Permaculture, IMHO, is an attempt to create a 
> horticultural society. That's what my lecture is about. It's pretty 
> exciting stuff, since I think ag is fundamentally unsustainable, summed up 
> in two questions: Name one ecosystem that is better off for having ag in 
> it. And, how long can we keep doing that?
>
> Toby
> http://patternliteracy.com
>
>
> On Nov 18, 2011, at 1:01 PM, John D'hondt wrote:
>
> > Seems to me that permaculture is a good step in the direction of
> > hunter-gathering. My problem with hunter-gathering in Ireland is that it 
> > is
> > not possible. I survived in the Scottish mountains for weeks at a time on
> > what I could find. Hill walking in Irish mountains that were once as rich 
> > as
> > the Scottish is severely disappointing in that there are no wild foods
> > anywhere except maybe for a few deer miles away and impossible to stalk.
> > Even the fish on the coast is going.
> > So to survive it has to be agriculture and developement of permaculture.
> > john
> >
> > > On Nov 17, 2011, at 9:37 AM, Dieter Brand wrote:
> > >
> > > > The argument about the superior health of the hunter gatherers is
> > > > probably exaggerated or based on a small statistical base of a few
> > > > archeological finds.
> > >
> > > See Jared Diamond's article, "The Worst Mistake in the History of the
> > > Human Race."
> > > http://www.ditext.com/diamond/mistake.html
> > >
> > > or mine, "Is Sustainable Agriculture an Oxymoron?"
> > > http://www.patternliteracy.com/203-is-sustainable-agriculture-an-oxymoron
> > >
> > > Not exaggerated. Essentially all the data available show that the shift 
> > > to
> > > agriculture resulted in a huge spike in epidemic disease, shorter
> > > lifespan, shrinkage in stature (suggesting poorer nutrition), tooth and
> > > bone problems, arthritis, etc. There aren't a lot of sites, it's true,
> > > probably no more than 40 or so that cover the transition, but they all
> > > show the same thing consistently. We paid a huge price nutritionally for
> > > the shift to agriculture (not to mention the loss of freedom, which is 
> > > far
> > > more significant to me).
> > >
> > > Okay, I really am procrastinating on writing a tough section of the
> > > patterns book. Back to it!
> > >
> > > Toby
> > > http://patternliteracy.com
> > >
> > >
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