permaculture

[chauncey williams <chaunceyfree@yahoo.com>]

I think all of the miscommunication comes from there not being any clear way 
to advance after the initial PDC.  Those days will soon be over.  The folks 
at Gaia University & Earth Action Mentor along with several other established 
Permaculture Institutes have been developing the DAPD, ie (Diploma of Applied 
Permaculture Design).  The aim is to have a structured 2 year program for PDC 
graduates who want to go deeper into permaculture and receive a diploma in 
the process.  It is still in development but should be happening very soon.  
Here is the link to the site
http://sites.google.com/site/permaculturediploma/
All said and done, if we're trying to make a positive difference in this 
world, I think it should be embraced and encouraged.  It took us many years 
of failed experiences to get us where we are, it will take many years of 
failed experiences to get us where we're going, the best we can do is try 
with open eyes.
Sean

--- On Fri, 10/22/10, Cory <cory8570@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Cory <cory8570@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] official certification
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Friday, October 22, 2010, 8:42 PM

Thank you for your clarity. There is quite a lot of confusion around the 
term. I would love to see a formal certification or diploma process 
established in the US. Meanwhile I will continue to push the concept of honor 
system (which is a great way to express it) and facilitate apprenticeships 
and continued education which to me will never stop. The natural world is a 
teacher of immense depth and width. 
C




On Oct 22, 2010, at 8:08 PM, Dick Pierce <dickpiercedesigns@gmail.com> wrote:

A topic of most import to me. Thanks for bringing it up - it needs to come
up from time to time as the inadvertent use of Certification is reasonably
rampant.

I fully agree with and support Toby's opinion and answer (which comes right
out of the PDC curriculum, etc.). The PDC is a Permaculture Design
Certificate, recognized in most places/organizations as the base course
necessary to take advanced courses and to embark on what nominally/normally
is a 2-year apprentice, intern, assistant, portfolio/syllabus-building term
before applying for a PC Diploma in Australia or Certification in the UK and
?France? or via an informal honor system in the US and other lands.

Calling a person with a PDC "certified" is not correct, reduces those
efforts and people that have a formal and rigorous certification/diploma
program. I would request, as has been done in the past, that all PDC
instructors/facilitators review their files, brochures, websites, course
descriptions, etc. to check them to be sure they only refer to a PDC
Certificate as the result of taking a PDC Course. A quick google of
Permaculture "Certification" will reveal the number of references that need
changing.

Thanks for listening, please take action.

Dick Pierce

On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 5:47 PM, paul wheaton <paul@richsoil.com> wrote:

The awkward part of all this is that there are PDCs that are billed as
becoming a certified permaculture designer.  Like the one I took.
Before attending the PDC I told people I was taking it to become a
certified permaculture designer.  And afterward I told people that I
was now a certified permaculture designer.

A couple of years ago I mentioned this on this list and heard this
same thing:  "no - taking a PDC does not make you a certified
permaculture designer."   So I double checked:  the ad was still up
for the class I took and it still said I would be a certified
permaculture designer.

I can see the need for more levels of certification.  I would really
like to support that.   And I think that if you stick to saying that
completing a PDC does not equate to a CPD then you will punish the
people that are in the know and reward the people that are not.

So I hope I'm not pissing anybody off by saying that I'm going to
assume that if somebody says "I'm a certified permaculture designer"
I'm going to assume that they have completed a PDC and nothing formal
beyond that.

As for the bit about two college classes vs. a degree:  Well, in the
java world we have a SCJP (Sun Certified Java Programmer) and there
are a bunch of one week courses (typically less than 40 hours)
designed to get you to pass the exam.  And this is considered one of
the toughest exams.  And then they have other, more advanced, exams
for stuff like "Sun Certified Java Architect" and the like.

To move forward, I would like to make the suggestion of embracing the
flaw that has occurred and building on it with things that are a bit
more clear.

On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 12:45 PM, Toby Hemenway
<toby@patternliteracy.com> wrote:
Beeja and everyone,

A note of clarification: Taking a PDC does not make you a "certified
permaculture designer." It's an introductory course. I urge people not to
say that, as it's a false claim. My PDC certificate from Mollison says that
I was now a "permaculture design trainee," and that's what the certificate
means. It is the first step toward becoming a designer, which, in the system
BIll set up, meant that after two years of additional, full-time work or its
equivalent in design under a mentor, you could then receive a diploma in
permaculture design, and then maybe call yourself a designer.

The PDC, at 72-100 hours or so of class, is roughly the same amount of
class time as two college courses. If you took chemistry 101 and 102, you
would never call yourself a chemist, right? (Ka-BOOM!) Same goes for the
PDC.

BTW, attachments are always scrubbed from this list--there was no
attachment. Good luck with the course, at any rate!

Toby
http://patternliteracy.com



On Oct 17, 2010, at 6:26 AM, b e e j a ... wrote:

Hello Fellow Earth Lovers,

For those of you interested to become a certified Permaculture Designer,
we
are hosting another course this November in Darjeeling on 14th -28th.
This
is the longest running PDC course happening in India for the last 7
years!

Come join the fun and help spread the awareness of sustainable lifestyle
design!

Attached is the flyer and registration form.

Hope to see you there!

Warm Regards,
Ameli
...
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-- 
DickPierceDesigns@gmail.com
SE-NE (summer) & Austin, TX (winter)
Cell-512-992-8858 (all-season)
www.DickPierceDesigns.com <http://www.dickpiercedesigns.com/>

Just Completed: 4 Courses of citizen Gardener-Basic. Next Course starts on
Jan 15 - http://citizengardener.grouply.com/.

And, just started: Fall 2010 Permaculture Decign - through Dec 11. Local
Food Grad Potluck & Celebration - Sun Dec 12 (TBA)

Next PDC starts on Jan. 24th; great Christmas present.

Dick's PC-Bio. on www.austinperm.com/
You Tube Dick Pierce for video clips
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IT certifications are an interesting comparison.  For industry standard 
technologies like Sun, Microsoft, and Cisco they break down into specific 
certifications that correspond to the type of software/hardware you're being 
trained in.  There are multiple levels of rigor, tests, and certifications 
for each specific track.

Because the PC community is based on a certification course as it's focal 
point it makes sense to improve that system...

The "two year" thing is more than a little bit hazy.  I have yet to meet 
somebody who has gone through the two year mentored design submission focus 
project oriented crucible that is supposed to gain one a designer cert. I 
have yet to encounter a way to acquire a place on that path, or anybody who 
has any suggestions how to get the formal process rolling.

I have met plenty of people who've told me the two year thing is more or less 
nonexistent at this point, and that the most important thing is to just get 
in there doing work.  At some point when you are comfortable/capable of 
defending your assertion that you are a designer you start asserting that.  
This seems to be the common response I get when I start asking questions.

I've spent over a year of my life now on different ag related permaprojects.  
None of that time has counted toward any kind of grander certifications and 
no mentors have emerged.

It would be nice if we could design a system to coordinate PDC graduates with 
people capable and qualified to offer the kind of design practice necessary.

And if the two year thing is really not going to happen on any more organized 
and recognizable way, then why not just do away with it and recognize the 
right of those PDC's that do claim to certify Designers (not Trainee's like 
me [I feel like Luke Skywalker when I say trainee]) as legitimate.



On Oct 22, 2010, at 6:47 PM, paul wheaton <paul@richsoil.com> wrote:

> The awkward part of all this is that there are PDCs that are billed as
> becoming a certified permaculture designer.  Like the one I took.
> Before attending the PDC I told people I was taking it to become a
> certified permaculture designer.  And afterward I told people that I
> was now a certified permaculture designer.
> 
> A couple of years ago I mentioned this on this list and heard this
> same thing:  "no - taking a PDC does not make you a certified
> permaculture designer."   So I double checked:  the ad was still up
> for the class I took and it still said I would be a certified
> permaculture designer.
> 
> I can see the need for more levels of certification.  I would really
> like to support that.   And I think that if you stick to saying that
> completing a PDC does not equate to a CPD then you will punish the
> people that are in the know and reward the people that are not.
> 
> So I hope I'm not pissing anybody off by saying that I'm going to
> assume that if somebody says "I'm a certified permaculture designer"
> I'm going to assume that they have completed a PDC and nothing formal
> beyond that.
> 
> As for the bit about two college classes vs. a degree:  Well, in the
> java world we have a SCJP (Sun Certified Java Programmer) and there
> are a bunch of one week courses (typically less than 40 hours)
> designed to get you to pass the exam.  And this is considered one of
> the toughest exams.  And then they have other, more advanced, exams
> for stuff like "Sun Certified Java Architect" and the like.
> 
> To move forward, I would like to make the suggestion of embracing the
> flaw that has occurred and building on it with things that are a bit
> more clear.
> 
> On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 12:45 PM, Toby Hemenway
> <toby@patternliteracy.com> wrote:
>> Beeja and everyone,
>> 
>> A note of clarification: Taking a PDC does not make you a "certified 
>> permaculture designer." It's an introductory course. I urge people not to 
>> say that, as it's a false claim. My PDC certificate from Mollison says 
>> that I was now a "permaculture design trainee," and that's what the 
>> certificate means. It is the first step toward becoming a designer, which, 
>> in the system BIll set up, meant that after two years of additional, 
>> full-time work or its equivalent in design under a mentor, you could then 
>> receive a diploma in permaculture design, and then maybe call yourself a 
>> designer.
>> 
>> The PDC, at 72-100 hours or so of class, is roughly the same amount of 
>> class time as two college courses. If you took chemistry 101 and 102, you 
>> would never call yourself a chemist, right? (Ka-BOOM!) Same goes for the 
>> PDC.
>> 
>> BTW, attachments are always scrubbed from this list--there was no 
>> attachment. Good luck with the course, at any rate!
>> 
>> Toby
>> http://patternliteracy.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Oct 17, 2010, at 6:26 AM, b e e j a ... wrote:
>> 
>>> Hello Fellow Earth Lovers,
>>> 
>>> For those of you interested to become a certified Permaculture Designer, 
>>> we
>>> are hosting another course this November in Darjeeling on 14th -28th. This
>>> is the longest running PDC course happening in India for the last 7 years!
>>> 
>>> Come join the fun and help spread the awareness of sustainable lifestyle
>>> design!
>>> 
>>> Attached is the flyer and registration form.
>>> 
>>> Hope to see you there!
>>> 
>>> Warm Regards,
>>> Ameli
>>> ...
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> permaculture mailing list
>>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>>> Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration here:
>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>>> Read the public message archives here:
>>> https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture
>>> Command to put in your browser's Google search box to search these 
>>> archives:
>>> site:lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [search string (omit the 
>>> brackets)]
>>> List Usage & Guidelines:
>>> http://ibiblio.org/permaculture/documents/permaculturelistguide.faq
>>> Permaculture http://www.ibiblio.org/permaculture
>>> Permaculture Mailing List Blog
>>> http://permaculturelist.blogspot.com
>>> permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
>>> List contact: permacultureforum@gmail.com
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
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>> archives:
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>> brackets)]
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>> Permaculture http://www.ibiblio.org/permaculture
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>> List contact: permacultureforum@gmail.com
>> 
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