permaculture

[Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>]

I sincerely appreciate the respect that some cultures afford those who have 
life experience - those who have honed their skills for decades rather than 
months or years. In some cultures, these things are given real weight and 
value - young people understand that elders may actually know and see some 
things that they do not, and they approach those with more experience with 
respect and an open mind, believing that there are things they can learn from 
someone who has "been there, done that." 

I have seen very little of that sort of awareness from a few of the young 
people on this list. The conversation started with a critique by you, Kevin, 
of a project you had few facts about and still haven't bothered to get. 

There is nothing about how you have approached this subject that would 
indicate to me that you have any legitimate viewpoint that has been well 
thought out, based on "thoughtful and protracted observation" of what you are 
questioning. Why should Scott or anyone else give credence to your viewpoint 
when you don't even bother to find out the facts before forming one? 

As someone who is somewhere in between youthful egoism and elder stature, I 
do appreciate what those with more experience have to say, and I do consider 
that just possibly, maybe, I do not know better than them, how to do what 
they have been doing for decades. 

In some cases, I have seen that I could bring wisdom or insight to someone 
with more experience than I have had. But that is only after I have spent at 
least a bit of time observing and understanding 

1. what they actually did
2. why they did it  
3. what the actual outcome was

Kevin, if you ever want to be taken seriously by those with more experience 
and know-how than you have, you may want to consider that you could learn 
something from that experience and know-how, and that it actually is worth 
something.  

It takes some people a lifetime to discover that for themselves - only when 
they become an "elder" themselves do they realize the value of experience. 
And some people never figure it out because they don't tend to learn from 
their experience so it really doesn't ever come to have any real value to 
them. 

Best, Cory


--- On Thu, 9/16/10, kevin skvorak <k.skvorak@gmail.com> wrote:

> From: kevin skvorak <k.skvorak@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] civility, respect and reputation
> To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Date: Thursday, September 16, 2010, 6:37 AM
> Hi folks,
> 
> at the risk of flogging dead horses, or ideas as the case
> may be...
> 
> Scott recently wrote:  " Since this whole diatribe
> started because I
> positively responded to the
> Oklahoma National Guard's request to train 14 soldiers in
> Permaculture."
> 
> well, i disagree with Scott (no surprise!)  i might
> just as well say that
> these series of threads started because i wrote something
> about Scott's
> effort, but that would also be as equally and grossly
> inaccurate, imho.
> 
>  "this whole diatribe"  goes on imo because it
> contains in it some deep and
> important questions that are powerfully in the hearts and
> minds of the
> people engaged in permaculture on this list.  Young
> people reach out,
> sometimes with frustration, at what they might see as less
> than effective
> work, decisions, words, or deeds of their elders.  It
> is their right and
> duty in fact to ask hard questions, to pose challenging
> critiques, esp in a
> realm like permaculture where so much of peoples higher
> aspirations are
> involved, and so much seemingly at stake.
> 
> so, IMHO, i am not so much troubled by the impertinence,
> rudeness, or even
> ignorance of the youth here. They are doing their job imo
> of keeping the old
> timers awake, and alive to the new folks concerns and
> perspectives
> 
> I am very! discouraged tho by the "defensive" responses of
> the elders in the
> movement.  I am also even more discouraged by what
> appears to be a
> widespread tendency towards dismissiveness of legitimate,
> and real concerns
> because they were "spoken" in a rude way.
> 
> God damn it to hell and a half!  I know all you old
> timers do not have
> virgin ears when it comes to tough talk, so why the hell
> the thin skins?
> hmmm?
> 
> and, the last of my two cents- I am STILL very personally
> concerned that
> Scott (below) and others still refuse to publicly grasp the
> essence of my
> original (and others too!) critique, and continue to
> falsely "spin" it into
> something that it wasn't; a personal attack on scott, the
> soldiers, or
> anyone else involved.  this constant refusal to accept
> what is my concern,
> and the concern of many others judging by the threads
> generated,  is the
> most troubling of all to me, and disturbs me much more than
> the rudeness of
> the youth here!
> 
> Scott! for gosdsakes!  in all of this prolonged
> discussion, i never once
> heard " sustained
> attacks on your persons, your beliefs, and your
> humanity.  I am ashamed of
> my association with those in permaculture who stoop to
> personal attacks to
> promote their own ideas and causes."
> 
> those threads that crossed over to personal attack were few
> and far between,
> and I might remind you, were initiated by example by you
> and LL!!  who were
> and have historically been the most extreme examples of
> such behaviour!
> (btw, is "flaming, pants on fire hypocrite" a personal
> attack? :) )
> 
> and what are you trying to do in continuing to characterize
> (and dismiss)
> real and legitimate concerns in this way? (with apparent
> and complete
> historical revisionism)   and why?
> 
> sincerely,
> and with respect,
> and i mean that!
>  kevin
> 
> 
> Re:
> 
> Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 10:58:50 -0600
> From: "Scott Pittman" <scott@permaculture.org>
> 
> 
> Since this whole diatribe started because I positively
> responded to the
> Oklahoma National Guard's request to train 14 soldiers in
> Permaculture.
> 
> A little background history:
> 
> In the sixties I helped organize cafes near Army and
> Airforce bases in order
> to meet and talk with soldiers being trained to go to
> VietNam.  Many of
> those soldiers became active against the war.  This
> was done under the
> auspices of Students for a Democratic Society.  This
> organization was very
> active in civil rights, anti-war activity, and working
> within urban slums.
> During that period of my life I was also called a traitor
> to my race, a
> communist, and a victim of liberalism.
> 
> Since I have been involved in permaculture I have worked
> around the world
> for social and economic justice among every segment of
> those societies
> including the military.  In Ecuador I gave a class to
> the Tiger Battalion as
> well as other students to help them become self sufficient
> in food.
> 
> I don't apologize for any of the activities above, nor do I
> apologize for
> the course I gave to the National Guard.  I do regret
> that those who I asked
> to help me with this course, and there were many more than
> Toby Hemenway,
> have had to deal with an incredible amount of rude,
> disrespectful, and
> thoughtless attacks.  I would like to apologize to all
> who supported my
> decision and that includes the 14 soldiers who we trained
> for the sustained
> attacks on your persons, your beliefs, and your
> humanity.  I am ashamed of
> my association with those in permaculture who stoop to
> personal attacks to
> promote their own ideas and causes.
> 
> I have trained over 2000 permaculture graduates in the past
> 25+ years and
> they are currently working in Haiti, Africa, Europe, Asia,
> Taiwan, Japan,
> China, India, and god knows where else to succor those in
> need, and to help
> them realize social and economic justice.  I will
> continue to train and work
> with anyone who in interested in the goals implicit in
> permaculture and that
> includes permaculture ethics.
> 
> I am amused by those critics whose contribution to
> permaculture and the
> world is measured in less than a decade and yet they are
> the ones with the
> loudest voice and most intemperate behavior in somehow
> trying to establish
> themselves as holier than thou. My grandmother used to say
> be aware that
> while you are pointing your finger at someone else you have
> three of your
> own fingers pointed at yourself.
> 
> This conservation has reached the pinnacle of its use to
> derive lessons, and
> rhetorical points; it would seem that it is time to move on
> to more fertile
> ground.  This is certainly my last comment on this
> thread.
> 
> Scott Pittman
> Director
> Permaculture Institute
> www.permaculture.org
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