permaculture

[Smith Mill Creek <smithmillcreek@gmail.com>]

Nicholas- This is a sad attack. * Sad, because it's mean. * Sad, because 
Toby's respect is earned-- for his courses nationally (of which I've 
taken one) * Sad, because Toby is generous enough to hang out on this 
list & share his experiences and his leadership (and has jokingly 
referred to himself as a curmudgeon) * Sad, because it starts this cycle 
of attack and defend that erodes email lists. * Sad, because being a 
permaculture teacher in the US often means low pay and putting up with 
snarky remarks * Sad, because the when you talk/write in this way, the 
more you look like a fool * Sad, because it attempts to laud some 
permaculture teachers, and attack others * Sad, because permaculture 
draws so many anti-authoritarian types who have trouble with community 
(and our esteemed senior founder in Australia may have something to do 
with that) I may or may not agree with whether permaculture should be 
taught to military or peace corps personnel, but this style is 
unproductive-- and frustrating. I don't know what it takes to be 
suspended from this list-- all too often it seems to be for the wrong 
reasons. On a brighter note, it is good to see so many permaculture 
convergences this year, and so many of them sold out; and to see the 
Transition movement spreading. -- Jim PS- A key task of those who live 
in the Global North is to help us rethink our consumption patterns & 
lifestyle. Toby has done this well, and so have many others. 
********************************************************* Message: 4 
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 10:22:21 -0700 From: "Nicholas Roberts, 
Permaculture.coop" <permaculturecoop@gmail.com> To: 
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org Toby, many look to you for leadership and 
guidance and I therefore its an uncomfortable duty to challenge that 
authority I am profoundly ignorant of what you do, yes, and all I have 
to go on is your writings, which I imagine is representative of your 
work ? I have absolutely no doubt your technical work is first class, 
your home gardening book is excellent but your political economy has 
none of the depth or subtlety of Mollison ("permaculture is more than a 
gardening system") or any of the grassroots activists I have met doing 
permaculture or involved in other activism that I have filmed or 
aggregated as far as I can tell you are not engaging any of the powerful 
lobbies like rural conservatives or agricultural movements like Doherty 
is doing with RegenAG http://permaculture.tv/?s=regenag you are not 
doing extreme permaculture in disaster or war zones like Uganda or Aceh 
like Steve Cran http://permaculture.tv/?s=steve+cran you are not engaged 
in international and interfaith public diplomacy like Geoff Lawton in 
Jordan, Palestine and the Middle East you are not building international 
activist and grassroots networks like Tony Andersen of Klimaforum 
http://permaculture.tv/?s=tony+andersen engaging royalty or dispossed 
farmers like Ali Shariff in the Amazon or Africa 
http://permaculture.tv/?s=ali+sharif young grassroots activists with a 
serious political economy 
http://permaculture.tv/liberation-permaculture-design-course/ instead, 
you have a new age flat earth political economy like Holmgren or Rob 
Hopkins, you live in a green ghetto in the heart of Empire and you 
confuse your own general comfort and affluence with the general state of 
your own country men and woman and more generally the very real 
desperation and increasing anger in the world. The Tea Party in the USA 
(and globally such as India) and the rise of other ultra-right polpulist 
and crypto fascism is driven by this liberal disengagement. In India 
there is more political and economic activism 
http://permaculture.tv/freedom-ahead/ The general level of awareness, 
especially amongst the so-called elite in the USA, the understanding of 
political economy is retarded, or is it you just dont care ? in 
Australia a renaissance in permaculture in the mainstream with a 
sophistication and organisation http://permaculture.tv/?s=apc10 that 
hopefully will one day come to the USA (I was going to say America, but 
I think the El Salvadorian farmer-to-farmer teaching model is far more 
sophisticated politically and culturally 
http://permaculture.tv/tag/el-salvador/ ) fortunately permaculture has 
been an international peace movement from the beginning and I think it 
will survive despite the implicit imperialism in some of permaculture 
and transition's big name "leaders"

> >  "Let's not talk to each other like this" - Right on and
> >  Amen.....Please/Thanks
> >
> >  Toby, you are so right on in what you say and, from personal experience I
> >  can say, even more right on in what you do and the incredibly-appreciated
> >  multiple places and ways and audiences where you do it. I'm glad that you
> >  seem to have a ducks back for this to roll off of and a tough enough skin
> >  with which to blunt the arrows. Bless you for what you do, for all that you
> >  teach, and all that we learn from you.
> >
> >  I am going to try to avoid reading any more on this thread. It is souring
> >  me
> >  on the whole, mostly interesting/civil listserve. The shame of it to me is
> >  that the core of Nicholas' message is right on - one at a time, individuals
> >  trained and converted can influence organizations over time, etc. The core
> >  is right on - but the 1st paragraph and last sentence are off-topic,
> >  inappropriate, very un-necessary, and detract from the message and the
> >  communication.
> >
> >  Let's do stop talking like this to each other, please. Perhaps it is time
> >  for some moderating/editing/ rejecting on the part of the listserve
> >  moderators or the listserve participants at large.
> >
> >  Dick Pierce
> >  On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 11:39 AM, Toby 
> Hemenway<toby@patternliteracy.comwrote:
> > >  >  Nicholas,
> > >  >
> > >  >  You are profoundly ignorant of where and how I work (I'm on the 
> > Blackfeet
> > >  >  Reservation at the moment) and your angry assumptions don' help 
> > anything.
> > >  >  Let's not talk to each other like this.
> > >  >
> > >  >  Toby
> > >  >  http://patternliteracy.com