permaculture

[danmk <dankablaoui@gmail.com>]

On 15 September 2010 04:20, Pierre Marx <
pierre@dalyellup-permaculture.com.au> wrote:

 Let's give civility a try and maybe those responses might be more
> forthcoming?
>
> Or is that too much to ask?
>


Pierre et al,

YES, far too much!  These are words my dude.  This is the internet.  Nobody
going to skin their knee.  How you going to hide behind a word like
civility?  How often are the challenges we (I, you) face (as individuals,
communities, as a planet) presented to us (me, you) in "civil" ways?  What
the..? huh?  what does this word even mean to you?

Let's all call up Bank of America and ask them to start behaving with a
little bit more civility.

If you cannot face a good-faith challenge, please just slink away into the
night.  Where did this attitude come from?  It smacks of weakness, laziness,
comfort.  It's not just you, not just these words - many on and off this
list seem to be pretending there is some kind of grand protocol here.  Like
we need to be sitting round in our smoking jackets legs crossed politely
waiting for each other to finish.  This is a tactic invented by "the global
north."  This is a WHITE argument.  This is a frustrating position.  These
words are a smokescreen.  Nobody is trying to ruin your lives!
Respect *is*be implicit on this list.  Have some understanding of the
context here.  We
are communicating with you.  We study your work.  You educate me.  What more
do you elders need to know?  Teenage Hormones?  Really?!  For Pete's sake.
For God's sake.  Stay humble.

"Right Relationship with All Beings" *does not* mean "that we disagree but
we can respect that difference and appreciate common ground and
similarities." It does not have any necessary connotations with the words
respect and civility.  Of course it can, but always?!  In fact, a Right
Relationship could well mean conflict, challenge, deconstruction, attack.
And it seems to have meant that now.


Honestly I've been listening to too much hip-hop to hear these words and
feel respect for them.  And I have a deep wellspring of respect.  I know
what it means to show and prove, I know how to recognize real, I know how to
listen, learn, and study with the good-will necessary to *hear*.  Your
position is deaf.


Ah, reputation.  A firm reputation is Very Necessary.  I really believe in
having to defend "yourself" and "your" reputation against attack.  What is
truly SAD is when "you" cop out of that responsibility and start bringing up
protocol, decorum, etc.  "You" have get no points, and teach us nothing,
with "your" qualifying dodge.


Teenage Hormones?  BAH!!!!!!!!!


We are very fortunate to have so many non-violent communicators here, but a
position like that propagates deeeeep ignance.




On 16 September 2010 09:42, Woody Wodraska <wodraska@mac.com> wrote:

> It is all there in that one word RESPECT  and the sooner we begin to do
> that rather than relate to one another out of teenage hormones the better.
> 'Right Relationship with All Beings' which sometimes
> means that we disagree but we can respect that difference and appreciate
> the common ground and similarities.
> Bright Blessings,
> Barbara and Woody
> Woody Wodraska
> wodraska@mac.com
> http://www.soulmedicinejourney.com
>    Deep Gardening: Soul Lessons from 17 Gardens, Biodynamic Memories  now
> available at
> http://www.trafford.com/Bookstore/BookDetail.aspx?BookId=SKU-000138866
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 16, 2010, at 6:37 AM, kevin skvorak wrote:
>
>  Hi folks,
>>
>> at the risk of flogging dead horses, or ideas as the case may be...
>>
>> Scott recently wrote:  " Since this whole diatribe started because I
>> positively responded to the
>> Oklahoma National Guard's request to train 14 soldiers in Permaculture."
>>
>> well, i disagree with Scott (no surprise!)  i might just as well say that
>> these series of threads started because i wrote something about Scott's
>> effort, but that would also be as equally and grossly inaccurate, imho.
>>
>> "this whole diatribe"  goes on imo because it contains in it some deep and
>> important questions that are powerfully in the hearts and minds of the
>> people engaged in permaculture on this list.  Young people reach out,
>> sometimes with frustration, at what they might see as less than effective
>> work, decisions, words, or deeds of their elders.  It is their right and
>> duty in fact to ask hard questions, to pose challenging critiques, esp in
>> a
>> realm like permaculture where so much of peoples higher aspirations are
>> involved, and so much seemingly at stake.
>>
>> so, IMHO, i am not so much troubled by the impertinence, rudeness, or even
>> ignorance of the youth here. They are doing their job imo of keeping the
>> old
>> timers awake, and alive to the new folks concerns and perspectives
>>
>> I am very! discouraged tho by the "defensive" responses of the elders in
>> the
>> movement.  I am also even more discouraged by what appears to be a
>> widespread tendency towards dismissiveness of legitimate, and real
>> concerns
>> because they were "spoken" in a rude way.
>>
>> God damn it to hell and a half!  I know all you old timers do not have
>> virgin ears when it comes to tough talk, so why the hell the thin skins?
>> hmmm?
>>
>> and, the last of my two cents- I am STILL very personally concerned that
>> Scott (below) and others still refuse to publicly grasp the essence of my
>> original (and others too!) critique, and continue to falsely "spin" it
>> into
>> something that it wasn't; a personal attack on scott, the soldiers, or
>> anyone else involved.  this constant refusal to accept what is my concern,
>> and the concern of many others judging by the threads generated,  is the
>> most troubling of all to me, and disturbs me much more than the rudeness
>> of
>> the youth here!
>>
>> Scott! for gosdsakes!  in all of this prolonged discussion, i never once
>> heard " sustained
>> attacks on your persons, your beliefs, and your humanity.  I am ashamed of
>> my association with those in permaculture who stoop to personal attacks to
>> promote their own ideas and causes."
>>
>> those threads that crossed over to personal attack were few and far
>> between,
>> and I might remind you, were initiated by example by you and LL!!  who
>> were
>> and have historically been the most extreme examples of such behaviour!
>> (btw, is "flaming, pants on fire hypocrite" a personal attack? :) )
>>
>> and what are you trying to do in continuing to characterize (and dismiss)
>> real and legitimate concerns in this way? (with apparent and complete
>> historical revisionism)   and why?
>>
>> sincerely,
>> and with respect,
>> and i mean that!
>> kevin
>>
>>
>> Re:
>>
>> Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 10:58:50 -0600
>> From: "Scott Pittman" <scott@permaculture.org>
>>
>>
>> Since this whole diatribe started because I positively responded to the
>> Oklahoma National Guard's request to train 14 soldiers in Permaculture.
>>
>> A little background history:
>>
>> In the sixties I helped organize cafes near Army and Airforce bases in
>> order
>> to meet and talk with soldiers being trained to go to VietNam.  Many of
>> those soldiers became active against the war.  This was done under the
>> auspices of Students for a Democratic Society.  This organization was very
>> active in civil rights, anti-war activity, and working within urban slums.
>> During that period of my life I was also called a traitor to my race, a
>> communist, and a victim of liberalism.
>>
>> Since I have been involved in permaculture I have worked around the world
>> for social and economic justice among every segment of those societies
>> including the military.  In Ecuador I gave a class to the Tiger Battalion
>> as
>> well as other students to help them become self sufficient in food.
>>
>> I don't apologize for any of the activities above, nor do I apologize for
>> the course I gave to the National Guard.  I do regret that those who I
>> asked
>> to help me with this course, and there were many more than Toby Hemenway,
>> have had to deal with an incredible amount of rude, disrespectful, and
>> thoughtless attacks.  I would like to apologize to all who supported my
>> decision and that includes the 14 soldiers who we trained for the
>> sustained
>> attacks on your persons, your beliefs, and your humanity.  I am ashamed of
>> my association with those in permaculture who stoop to personal attacks to
>> promote their own ideas and causes.
>>
>> I have trained over 2000 permaculture graduates in the past 25+ years and
>> they are currently working in Haiti, Africa, Europe, Asia, Taiwan, Japan,
>> China, India, and god knows where else to succor those in need, and to
>> help
>> them realize social and economic justice.  I will continue to train and
>> work
>> with anyone who in interested in the goals implicit in permaculture and
>> that
>> includes permaculture ethics.
>>
>> I am amused by those critics whose contribution to permaculture and the
>> world is measured in less than a decade and yet they are the ones with the
>> loudest voice and most intemperate behavior in somehow trying to establish
>> themselves as holier than thou. My grandmother used to say be aware that
>> while you are pointing your finger at someone else you have three of your
>> own fingers pointed at yourself.
>>
>> This conservation has reached the pinnacle of its use to derive lessons,
>> and
>> rhetorical points; it would seem that it is time to move on to more
>> fertile
>> ground.  This is certainly my last comment on this thread.
>>
>> Scott Pittman
>> Director
>> Permaculture Institute
>> www.permaculture.org
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