permaculture

[Killian O'Brien <admin@pri-de.org>]

Seriously, how does this not come down to live and let live? Whatever floats 
your boat? There are as many ways to teach as there are teachers?

You cannot legislate ethics, morals or values.

You cannot expect to impose yours on others. "Stupidity is the attempt to 
iron out all differences." - B. Mollison

Debate the relative merits? Fine. Try to define for others what they should 
think, do, believe, value? Not a chance. I should sue the pants off of 
PRI-USA and PRI Aus for breach of contract (but ironically, you need money to 
get money... quite a system), and Rhamis Kent for defamation, but does that 
mean PRI should not be doing permaculture? No. It's absurd. Will everyone 
have a problem with them? No. Life is not simple. We make the best decisions 
we can at the time. Unless you think the person's intent has a little black 
lining to it, really, what right do you have to question them?

This isn't rocket science. Be tolerant, or don't. Understand that others see 
and experience the world differently than you do, or don't. But if you are 
going to keep this "conversation" going, can you all keep it to the merits, 
which might actually be useful and interesting?

Cheers,

Killian O'Brien
PRI-De
admin@pri-de.org
(313) 647-4015

killiankob@yahoo.com
(760) 617-4693

-----Original Message-----
From: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org 
[mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Woody Wodraska
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 9:42 AM
To: permaculture
Subject: Re: [permaculture] civility, respect and reputation

It is all there in that one word RESPECT  and the sooner we begin to  
do that rather than relate to one another out of teenage hormones the  
better. 'Right Relationship with All Beings' which sometimes
means that we disagree but we can respect that difference and  
appreciate the common ground and similarities.
Bright Blessings,
Barbara and Woody
Woody Wodraska
wodraska@mac.com
http://www.soulmedicinejourney.com
     Deep Gardening: Soul Lessons from 17 Gardens, Biodynamic  
Memories  now available at 
http://www.trafford.com/Bookstore/BookDetail.aspx?BookId=SKU-000138866



On Sep 16, 2010, at 6:37 AM, kevin skvorak wrote:

> Hi folks,
>
> at the risk of flogging dead horses, or ideas as the case may be...
>
> Scott recently wrote:  " Since this whole diatribe started because I
> positively responded to the
> Oklahoma National Guard's request to train 14 soldiers in  
> Permaculture."
>
> well, i disagree with Scott (no surprise!)  i might just as well say  
> that
> these series of threads started because i wrote something about  
> Scott's
> effort, but that would also be as equally and grossly inaccurate,  
> imho.
>
> "this whole diatribe"  goes on imo because it contains in it some  
> deep and
> important questions that are powerfully in the hearts and minds of the
> people engaged in permaculture on this list.  Young people reach out,
> sometimes with frustration, at what they might see as less than  
> effective
> work, decisions, words, or deeds of their elders.  It is their right  
> and
> duty in fact to ask hard questions, to pose challenging critiques,  
> esp in a
> realm like permaculture where so much of peoples higher aspirations  
> are
> involved, and so much seemingly at stake.
>
> so, IMHO, i am not so much troubled by the impertinence, rudeness,  
> or even
> ignorance of the youth here. They are doing their job imo of keeping  
> the old
> timers awake, and alive to the new folks concerns and perspectives
>
> I am very! discouraged tho by the "defensive" responses of the  
> elders in the
> movement.  I am also even more discouraged by what appears to be a
> widespread tendency towards dismissiveness of legitimate, and real  
> concerns
> because they were "spoken" in a rude way.
>
> God damn it to hell and a half!  I know all you old timers do not have
> virgin ears when it comes to tough talk, so why the hell the thin  
> skins?
> hmmm?
>
> and, the last of my two cents- I am STILL very personally concerned  
> that
> Scott (below) and others still refuse to publicly grasp the essence  
> of my
> original (and others too!) critique, and continue to falsely "spin"  
> it into
> something that it wasn't; a personal attack on scott, the soldiers, or
> anyone else involved.  this constant refusal to accept what is my  
> concern,
> and the concern of many others judging by the threads generated,  is  
> the
> most troubling of all to me, and disturbs me much more than the  
> rudeness of
> the youth here!
>
> Scott! for gosdsakes!  in all of this prolonged discussion, i never  
> once
> heard " sustained
> attacks on your persons, your beliefs, and your humanity.  I am  
> ashamed of
> my association with those in permaculture who stoop to personal  
> attacks to
> promote their own ideas and causes."
>
> those threads that crossed over to personal attack were few and far  
> between,
> and I might remind you, were initiated by example by you and LL!!   
> who were
> and have historically been the most extreme examples of such  
> behaviour!
> (btw, is "flaming, pants on fire hypocrite" a personal attack? :) )
>
> and what are you trying to do in continuing to characterize (and  
> dismiss)
> real and legitimate concerns in this way? (with apparent and complete
> historical revisionism)   and why?
>
> sincerely,
> and with respect,
> and i mean that!
> kevin
>
>
> Re:
>
> Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 10:58:50 -0600
> From: "Scott Pittman" <scott@permaculture.org>
>
>
> Since this whole diatribe started because I positively responded to  
> the
> Oklahoma National Guard's request to train 14 soldiers in  
> Permaculture.
>
> A little background history:
>
> In the sixties I helped organize cafes near Army and Airforce bases  
> in order
> to meet and talk with soldiers being trained to go to VietNam.  Many  
> of
> those soldiers became active against the war.  This was done under the
> auspices of Students for a Democratic Society.  This organization  
> was very
> active in civil rights, anti-war activity, and working within urban  
> slums.
> During that period of my life I was also called a traitor to my  
> race, a
> communist, and a victim of liberalism.
>
> Since I have been involved in permaculture I have worked around the  
> world
> for social and economic justice among every segment of those societies
> including the military.  In Ecuador I gave a class to the Tiger  
> Battalion as
> well as other students to help them become self sufficient in food.
>
> I don't apologize for any of the activities above, nor do I  
> apologize for
> the course I gave to the National Guard.  I do regret that those who  
> I asked
> to help me with this course, and there were many more than Toby  
> Hemenway,
> have had to deal with an incredible amount of rude, disrespectful, and
> thoughtless attacks.  I would like to apologize to all who supported  
> my
> decision and that includes the 14 soldiers who we trained for the  
> sustained
> attacks on your persons, your beliefs, and your humanity.  I am  
> ashamed of
> my association with those in permaculture who stoop to personal  
> attacks to
> promote their own ideas and causes.
>
> I have trained over 2000 permaculture graduates in the past 25+  
> years and
> they are currently working in Haiti, Africa, Europe, Asia, Taiwan,  
> Japan,
> China, India, and god knows where else to succor those in need, and  
> to help
> them realize social and economic justice.  I will continue to train  
> and work
> with anyone who in interested in the goals implicit in permaculture  
> and that
> includes permaculture ethics.
>
> I am amused by those critics whose contribution to permaculture and  
> the
> world is measured in less than a decade and yet they are the ones  
> with the
> loudest voice and most intemperate behavior in somehow trying to  
> establish
> themselves as holier than thou. My grandmother used to say be aware  
> that
> while you are pointing your finger at someone else you have three of  
> your
> own fingers pointed at yourself.
>
> This conservation has reached the pinnacle of its use to derive  
> lessons, and
> rhetorical points; it would seem that it is time to move on to more  
> fertile
> ground.  This is certainly my last comment on this thread.
>
> Scott Pittman
> Director
> Permaculture Institute
> www.permaculture.org
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