Skip to Content.
Sympa Menu

permaculture - Re: [permaculture] Movement thinking (was Designing a Movement)

permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: permaculture

List archive

Chronological Thread  
  • From: Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] Movement thinking (was Designing a Movement)
  • Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:58:45 -0700 (PDT)

"Permaculture is a revolution disguised as gardening." That is a succinct
way to describe the movement that carries with it many implications. I've
told that to people on virtually every point of the political spectrum and
they actually get it - they get that permaculture offers individual freedom
and quality of life, a way out from under the thumb of the oppressor (whoever
they may feel that is), and a healthier way to live.

Permaculture can be forwarded by any group, and it is up to those of us that
understand the subject to ensure that inaccurate information about it is
corrected. There are a number of ways to achieve that that have been
mentioned here. I feel that is an important discussion - how should we keep
the subject accurate, as it leaks out into the mainstream and various other
groups? It is inevitable that it will, so why try to stop it? What we
really need to do is control the accuracy of the subject.

The most active permaculturists on this list tend toward the left/hippie
modality, but as others have mentioned, there are permaculturists at any
political spectrum.

I find the discussions about excluding people from the "movement" simply
because of where they work (like the army), or their religious affiliation,
or political affiliation, etc, to be a form of discrimination and a human and
civil rights violation, as well as a clear lack of understanding of the
ethics of "people care."

Who here thinks that people care means "only the people I personally agree
with?" or "only the people I personally feel are worthy of being exposed to
natural principles?" or "only the people I personally think could possibly
understand these natural principles, even though they are universally
understood by all living being, on a visceral level, when they actually
listen to themselves?"

I think it is incredibly egoistic to assume that any of us knows best who
should be exposed to this knowledge, or that they could possibly predict how
it might affect them, change them, enlighten them, increase their ability to
be ethical and decent human beings, etc.

Haven't we all been through paradigm shift in some way or other? For many of
us it has been a gut wrenching experience. For me, it is a life long journey
which delves ever deeper. I would feel terrible if I denied someone else the
opportunity to explore those depths, simply because of some unexamined
prejudice I have about some group they belong to. I personally know someone
who used to be "Aryan race" proponent who saw the light and completely
reformed and is now a civil rights activist for minorities. There is a 25
year career ex-Army guy in the PDC I'm giving right now at Pine Ridge Lakota
reservation that is turning himself inside out to help Pine Ridge.

ANYTHING can happen, guys, people are very volatile beings.

I use very hands on methods of teaching permaculture that takes people
outside of their paradigm and puts them in touch with the natural world on
that visceral level - such as Tom Brown techniques, etc. I have personally
witnessed massive paradigm shifts so I know it can be done, even if a person
is immersed in the "corporate" or "army" paradigm. Those are the people we
need to reach most. Some of us embrace that challenge, and some of us want
nothing to do with it. Great! I'm all for diversity, but please don't try
to tell another experienced permaculturist who they should talk to about
permaculture, when you don't even know them or the situation.

Best, Cory


--- On Mon, 8/16/10, Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com> wrote:

> From: Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Movement thinking (was Designing a Movement)
> To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Date: Monday, August 16, 2010, 8:41 PM
> Rafter-- as usual, I get and
> appreciate what you say and the tone in which you say it,
> and take it in the kind spirit it is given. I agree that I
> oversimplified and showed a lot of bias in my description of
> what movements are. Mostly because I see little upside, and
> a lot of downside, to permaculture being regarded as a
> movement. There have been many memorable and effective
> movements, of course: civil rights, anti-war, anti-abortion,
> German National Socialism, and others all over the map.
> Movements attract . . . what's a polite word for fanatic?
> Perhaps activist is. Some do immense good, some immense
> harm. Some movements increase the rights of one group at the
> expense of others. Some do better than that. Civil rights is
> the broadest and best model I can think of.
>
> But almost any movement comes with its own political
> framework and can usually be placed in a fairly small region
> of the political spectrum. If we look at permaculture as a
> movement, it's in the quite left-wing, Earth-worshipping,
> hippie-descended, middle and upper middle class, etc, etc,
> region, with a modest number of outliers included. A narrow
> slice. Who else would even be arguing about working with the
> army?
>
> So what are the odds of a movement like this getting a wide
> reception? To anyone outside of permaculture's primary
> political clique, the "movement" baggage poses a huge
> hurdle. It's possible that as a movement permaculture can do
> the same for ecological consciousness that the civil rights
> movement did for racial consciousness. But there are some
> big differences. The civil rights movement as a whole was
> not a methodology or a set of principles; it wasn't
> primarily holding classes or looking to be taught in
> universities. It had one easily grasped central point: equal
> rights for all races. We can't define our central point, if
> we have one, in less than a fat black book or a two-week
> course. And a politicized movement is not going to be
> invited into schools or local governments or churches or
> other institutions except in those instances where the
> politics of the institution match that of permaculture
> activists. Civil rights had to batter its way in, at a very
> high personal cost t
> o many. Is that what we want to do? I think that is an
> unnecessarily difficult road for us to take; the design
> standpoint will reach people much more quickly. Permaculture
> as a movement won't be invited anywhere that the politics or
> socio-economic groundings don't match the movement's. A
> design approach, however, will be welcomed almost anywhere.
> That's why I'd like to see the design side of permaculture
> emphasized over the movement aspect.
>
> Also, I don't see the ethical basis of permaculture as an
> impediment. Who is going to argue against caring for the
> Earth and people? The ethics are bland enough to appeal to
> all. The fact that permaculture involves ethics is quite
> radical, but even very conservative groups grasp the need
> for ethical guidelines. That part can have wide appeal. A
> left-ish movement doesn't.
>
> I do often think of myself as part of a movement--who
> doesn't want to belong to a tribe? But political movement
> design and process are very different from those of an
> ecological design system. Maybe our failure to identify and
> deal with the distinction is why permaculture has made so
> little progress in 30 years. I think there are some good
> things to be learned from pursuing this a bit.
>
> Toby
> http://patternliteracy.com
>
>
>
> On Aug 16, 2010, at 4:28 PM, rafter sass wrote:
>
> > Hey Toby,
> >
> > As usual, I'm crazy about your response, in tone,
> quality of thinking, and content.
> >
> > All except for the third paragraph where, for reasons
> I can't fathom, you redefine
> > the concept of "movement"  - and by implication,
> movement participants -
> > as simpleton ideological cliques. It bears no relation
> to any recognizable
> > definition of social movement.
> >
> > Why, Toby, why? [insert wringing of hands]
> >
> > Why work to isolate Pc from the inspiring history, and
> critical present-day
> > reality of global social movements? Advocate for your
> vision of Pc, please.
> > It's needed. Plus I mostly agree with you. ;)
> >
> > But don't paint this distorted picture of social
> movements.
> >
> > Do I agree with you about avoiding evangelism,
> self-righteousness,
> > and "purity vs. pollution" thinking? Absolutely. And
> the distribution of these
> > traits - on this list alone! - makes it clear that
> there is no correlation with
> > the trait of movement thinking.
> >
> > Permaculture is a design approach and a movement at
> the very same time - if you use
> > a recognizable definition of movement. (I guess I'm
> camping in both of your camps.)
> >
> > It is certainly not unique among movements. It's a
> fellow traveller with many other
> > examples of: large numbers of people working together
> in a more-or-less organized,
> > more-or-less spontaneous fashion, to make the world
> safe, just, and sustainable. (Check out Hawken's
> > Blessed Unrest to see this point made in vastly more
> detail.) Like other grassroots movements, it's
> > not pure, it's not objective, and to the degree that
> it's adherents are self-righteous evangelical
> > nincompoops, it will fail!
> >
> > Every significant historical gain in freedom,
> worldwide, has been fought for and won -
> > not through some idealized, objective, design
> practice, but through messy, difficult social movements.
> > Furthermore, they've been fought for with tactics of
> disruptive protest, among other tools in the toolbox.
> > It's bad form, to say the least, for white males in
> the North, like you and me, to foster ignorance of that
> fact.
> >
> > Likewise for so much of the significant defenses of
> ecological health that we've been able to accomplish -
> > c.f. the success of the disruptive, law-breaking,
> anti-nuke movement here at home. Do you think
> > that we'll get decent climate treaties, or stop
> mountaintop removal mining, without
> > the pressure brought to bear by disruptive protest,
> and the movements that
> > make it happen? History tells us, decisively, "No."
> >
> > We can't do an end-run around the need to think about
> the Permaculture milieu as a whole, by focusing
> > on practice alone. And we need to regard ourselves,
> our whole movement, as part of a greater whole -
> > and not only ecologically. We do this so that we don't
> isolate ourselves from our fellow travelers, so we
> > can share the crucial and unique resources that we
> bring, with the folks most prepared to make good use of
> them.
> >
> > And also because we need those other movements that we
> are making this path with.
> > Permaculture alone won't get us the world we want - a
> world that's worth living in.
> >
> > Thank for all your incredible contributions, Toby. I'm
> confident that you will receive this in
> > the spirit of collegiality and respect in which it is
> intended.
> >
> > Best,
> > Rafter
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > rafter sass
> > liberationecology.org
> >
> >> From: Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
> >> Date: August 16, 2010 10:38:59 AM EDT
> >> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Designing a Movement
> (was: Ethics of whatever)
> >> Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> >>
> >>
> >> rafter wrote:
> >>
> >>> Teaching Pc for, and to, white nationalists,
> would be bad for the movement.
> >>
> >> I think this gets to one of the central confusions
> of this discussion, and why at times we are talking past
> each other (and BTW, I know someone who taught a PDC for
> white ideologists, who told me that a lot of important
> insights came out--for the instructor as well).
> >>
> >> I think we fall into two camps: those who view
> permaculture as a movement, and those who view it as a
> design approach. Of course, most of us--myself
> included--hold portions of both views, but I think one will
> predominate in each person.
> >>
> >> If you think of Pc as a movement, then we are
> activists who are trying to transform people's view of the
> world, and we need everyone to see it our way. We are right.
> Permaculture is then a worldview, an ideology of sorts, and
> people need to do it our way, or the wrong side will win.
> And our ideology needs to remain pure and uncorrupted. 
> If the wrong people infiltrate us, permaculture will become
> tainted, ruined, and it will turn into something we don't
> want. You are either following it or not; you're with us or
> against us, and if you are against us, you need to be
> transformed.You can see that I don't like the idea of Pc
> being a movement, even though I'm often caught up in its
> evangelical qualities. And it's not a big step from being a
> movement to being a cult, which some accuse permaculture of
> being. Some of the arguments made here are almost cult-like:
> we have secret knowledge that needs to be kept from the army
> or they will do harm with it.
> >>
> >> Or the other view: If permaculture is a design
> approach, then at its essence it is a set of tools for
> Earth- and people-care that is not dependent on belief or
> ideology. It can't be corrupted because its use either does
> or doesn't follow the ethics and principles, and it stops
> being permaculture when those are not being adhered to. Or
> at least we can say it is a poor or incomplete use of
> permaculture. A person is either a good designer or a poor
> one. You use the principles in your work or you don't. You
> use ecological and social metrics to assess whether you've
> been successful: As biodiversity up? Are people healthy?
> This puts the responsibility on the user, and not on
> permaculture as a movement that may be corrupted by bad
> people.
> >>
> >> Larry Santoyo's phrase is useful here: We don't DO
> permaculture, we USE permaculture in what we do. Activists
> in a movement do permaculture. Designers use permaculture in
> what they do. If the army uses permaculture, it will result
> in Earth care and people care. If it doesn't have that
> result, then they aren't using permaculture; they are
> ideologists applying capitalist/corporate ideology to yet
> another tool they have made poor use of. If we don't teach
> them permaculture, there is no chance of them doing the good
> it can do. It cannot make them worse, in my view. It will
> either be abandoned by them, or it will make them good
> designers of healthy systems.
> >>
> >> Again, I think "go where you are invited" applies.
> I have no intention of trying to transform the army with
> permaculture: that's ideology.  But if they come to me
> to ask how they can use permaculture to have ecologically
> and socially successful and sound projects, I'll be there.
> The student must be ready for the teacher, or there will be
> no learning.
> >>
> >> And incidentally, I've really appreciated what
> Rafter and manyy others have written here, especially the
> Rafter/Scott dialog. Thanks for a thought provoking thread.
>
> >>
> >> And, Cory and all: Permaculture is already being
> taught in over 25 universities in the US alone, at last
> count.
> >>
> >> And: I absolutely approve, as Kevin suggested, of
> making the ethics, principles, and curriculum much clearer
> and less subject to wild interpretations. Hence the need for
> organizations that link permaculturists together,
> >>
> >> Toby
> >> http://patternliteracy.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Aug 12, 2010, at 2:55 PM, rafter sass wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> permaculture mailing list
> >> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > Google command to search archives:
> > site:http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture
> searchstring
>
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> Google command to search archives:
> site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture
> searchstring
>







Archive powered by MHonArc 2.6.24.

Top of Page