permaculture

[Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>]

I am far from privy to everything the army is doing in Haiti (I had very 
little interaction with them) and I would bet that some of it is pretty 
actively harmful. However, what I did notice was that Haitians I spoke with 
who saw them doing genuinely good things (like facilitating getting food and 
potable water to people whose lives were at stake, digging latrines for them 
to prevent disease, etc), could differentiate quite easily between these 
positive acts and the overall purpose of the armed forces and abuses 
perpetuated by same, including what occurred in the previous occupation of 
Haiti. Ironically, one of the people (a Lakota warrior) who occupied Haiti 
earlier while in the US Army is now the head of the permaculture project 
we're partnering with at Pine Ridge reservation and will be hosting Haitians 
on his land at the reservation to learn broadscale ecological rehabilitation. 

Perhaps we should give others credit for being able to differentiate. Those 
who can't or won't differentiate amongst individuals and individual acts may 
not be the best candidates to implement permaculture design in any case 
(regardless of whether they are army or insurgent). 

As for being attacked, which do you think puts Americans or Europeans 
(permaculturists or otherwise) at most risk in countries like Afghanistan?  
An Army that is totally ignorant and destructive in its activites, ripping 
apart ecosystems that provide food and resources for people, creating 
non-sustainable systems, etc, or an Army that actually creates something that 
is useful to the local people, that lasts, that regenerates rather than 
destroys, and can be used by the people to forward their own aims and quality 
of life? 

One of our first responder sanitation volunteers in Haiti ended up working 
for a major NGO. She says it is slow to get sustainable ideas implemented, 
but she has managed to build arbor loos in one of the camps and is working on 
getting more and more people in the NGOs educated.  

In our PDC at Pine Ridge, isntructor Warren Brush just told a wonderful story 
about how an Iroquois managed to get an entire multinational corporation to 
change its policies about polluting water supplies simply by touching the 
heart of one person on its Board of Directors. Let's not underestimate the 
change that can be made by even one person making a real paradigm shift in 
his or her heart, in ANY organization.
  
Cory
permacultureguild.us

--- On Thu, 8/19/10, LBUZZELL@aol.com <LBUZZELL@aol.com> wrote:

> From: LBUZZELL@aol.com <LBUZZELL@aol.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Movement thinking (was Designing a Movement)
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Thursday, August 19, 2010, 12:14 PM
> Hi Cory and everyone,
>  
> On the military using permaculture for purposes that might
> conflict with  
> PmC ethics, a few previous posters have spelled those
> dangers in great  
> detail so I won't repeat it here.  I'm certainly no
> expert on CIA thinking  or 
> military/corporate strategy during occupations, but I'm
> also not naive enough  
> to believe that the introduction of new agricultural
> methods by an 
> occupying  army has no ulterior motive.
>  
> Also, previous posters have speculated that if permaculture
> is introduced  
> to a culture by an unpopular occupying army, this negative
> attitude towards  
> permaculture might endanger future permaculture teachers in
> that area.  I  
> have no information that this has ever happened, but
> logically I think it's 
> a  possible result to consider.
>  
> Linda
>  
>  
> In a message dated 8/19/2010 11:58:39 A.M. Pacific Daylight
> Time,  
> cory8570@yahoo.com
> writes:
> 
> Could  you give an example of what you're thinking
> when you say "it might 
> also be  true that the military system could use
> permaculture for  purposes 
> that  might conflict with PmC ethics and Afghanis
> might resent PmC for  that  
> reason or even attack future permaculture teachers who
> arrived in their   
> country."  
> 
> Like spell out a scenario? It will be easier to 
> discuss ethics if we can 
> narrow down differences and get into specifics. 
> Examples that actually 
> occurred would be the best. 
> 
> Cory   
> 
> --- On Thu, 8/19/10, LBUZZELL@aol.com
> <LBUZZELL@aol.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> > From: LBUZZELL@aol.com
> <LBUZZELL@aol.com>
> >  Subject: Re: [permaculture] Movement thinking
> (was Designing a  Movement)
> > To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > Date: Thursday,  August 19, 2010, 11:25 AM
> > I agree that this is an important
> >  discussion.
> >  
> > One thing I've noticed is that those who  are
> uncomfortable
> > with the idea of 
> >  teaching  permaculture in an official
> military context seem
> > to focus on the  
> >  organization/ecosystem, while those who defend
> teaching
> >  permaculture to  
> > "everyone" seem to focus on
> individuals.   Sort of like
> > the forest and the  
> > trees?  Would it  be possible to adopt a
> "yes/and"
> > approach, where we look  at  
> > both?
> >  
> > For example, I can see how if I were an 
> individual soldier
> > or an individual 
> >  Afghani farmer I  might benefit from the
> opportunity to
> > learn permaculture, 
> >  but  it might also be true that the
> military system
> > could use  permaculture 
> > for  purposes that might conflict with PmC
> ethics  and
> > Afghanis might resent 
> > PmC for  that reason or even  attack future
> > permaculture teachers who arrived 
> > in  their  country.  It's very
> complicated! 
> >  
> > I  don't see a way to simplify this into a simple
> "rule" --
> > "teach PmC  to  
> > anyone and everyone who's interested"  or
> "don't  teach
> > PmC to military  
> > organizations that might misuse  it for nasty
> purposes." So
> > how do we make our  
> > ethical  decisions?
> >  
> > Linda
> >  
> >  
> >  In a message dated 8/19/2010 10:59:05 A.M.
> Pacific Daylight
> >  Time,  
> > cory8570@yahoo.com
> > writes:
> > 
> >  "Permaculture is a revolution disguised as
> > gardening."   That  is a  
> > succinct way to describe the movement that 
> carries with it
> > many  implications. I've 
> > told that to  people on virtually every point of
> the 
> > political spectrum and  
> > they actually get it - they get that permaculture 
> >  offers individual 
> > freedom and quality of life, a way out from
> under  the
> > thumb  of the oppressor 
> > (whoever they may feel that  is), and a healthier
> way to
> > live.  
> > 
> > Permaculture  can be forwarded by any group, and
> it is up to
> > those of  us  
> > that understand the subject to ensure that inaccurate
> >  information about it  is 
> > corrected. There are a number of ways  to achieve
> that that
> > have been  
> > mentioned here. I feel  that is an important
> discussion -
> > how should we keep  the  
> > subject accurate, as it leaks out into the mainstream
> and
> >  various other  
> > groups?  It is inevitable that it will, so 
> why try to
> > stop it?  What  we really 
> > need to do is  control the accuracy of the
> subject.  
> > 
> > The  most  active permaculturists on this
> list tend
> > toward the left/hippie  
> > modality,  but as others have mentioned, there
> are
> >  permaculturists at any 
> > political  spectrum. 
> > 
> > I  find the discussions about excluding people
> from
> > the  "movement"  simply 
> > because of where they work (like the army), or 
> their 
> > religious affiliation, 
> > or political affiliation,  etc, to be a form of 
> > discrimination and a human 
> > and  civil rights violation, as well as a clear
> lack 
> > of understanding  of the 
> > ethics of "people care."  
> > 
> > Who here  thinks  that people care means
> "only the
> > people I personally  agree 
> > with?"  or  "only the people I
> personally  feel
> > are worthy of being exposed 
> > to natural   principles?"  or
> "only the people I
> > personally think could  
> > possibly  understand these natural principles,
> even
> >  though they are universally  
> > understood by all living being, on  a visceral
> level, when
> > they actually 
> > listen  to  themselves?"  
> > 
> > I think it is incredibly egoistic to  assume
> that  any
> > of us knows best who 
> > should be exposed  to this knowledge, or that
> they 
> > could possibly predict 
> >  how it might affect them, change them,
> enlighten
> > them,  increase  their ability 
> > to be ethical and decent human beings,
> etc.   
> > 
> > Haven't we all been through paradigm shift in some
> way  or
> > other? For  many 
> > of us it has been a gut wrenching  experience.
> For me, it is
> > a life long  
> > journey which  delves ever deeper. I would feel
> terrible if
> > I denied someone   
> > else the opportunity to explore those depths, simply
> > because  of some  
> > unexamined prejudice I have about some group
> they  belong
> > to. I personally know  
> > someone who used to be  "Aryan race" proponent
> who saw the
> > light and completely  
> >  reformed and is now a civil rights activist for
> minorities.
> > There is a  25 
> > year  career ex-Army guy in the PDC I'm giving
> right
> >  now at Pine Ridge Lakota  
> > reservation that is turning himself  inside out
> to help Pine
> > Ridge.  
> > 
> > ANYTHING can  happen, guys, people are very
> volatile 
> >  beings.   
> > 
> > I use very hands on methods of  teaching 
> permaculture
> > that takes people 
> > outside of  their paradigm and puts them in 
> touch with
> > the natural world on  
> > that visceral level - such as Tom Brown 
> techniques,
> >  etc. I have personally 
> > witnessed massive paradigm shifts so I 
> know  it can be
> > done, even if a person 
> > is immersed in  the "corporate" or "army" 
> paradigm.
> > Those are the people we  
> > need to reach most. Some of us embrace that 
> > challenge,  and some of us want 
> > nothing to do with it. 
> Great!   I'm  all for
> > diversity, but please don't try 
> > to tell  another experienced  permaculturist
> who they
> > should talk to about  
> > permaculture, when you don't even  know them or
> the
> >  situation. 
> > 
> > Best, Cory
> > 
> > 
> > --- On Mon,  8/16/10,  Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > > From: Toby  Hemenway  <toby@patternliteracy.com>
> > > Subject: Re:  [permaculture]  Movement
> thinking
> > (was Designing a  Movement)
> > > To: "permaculture"   <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > > Date: Monday, August 16,  2010,  8:41
> PM
> > > Rafter-- as usual, I get and
> > >  appreciate what you say  and the tone
> in which
> > you say  it,
> > > and take it in the kind spirit it is  given.
> I
> >  agree that I
> > > oversimplified and showed a lot of bias in 
> my 
> > description of
> > > what movements are. Mostly  because I see
> little
> > upside,  and
> > > a lot of downside,  to permaculture being
> regarded as
> > a
> > >  movement. There  have been many
> memorable and
> > effective
> > > movements,  of  course: civil rights,
> anti-war,
> > anti-abortion,
> > >  German National  Socialism, and others
> all over
> > the map.
> >  > Movements attract . . . what's  a
> polite word for
> >  fanatic?
> > > Perhaps activist is. Some do immense
> good,   some
> > immense
> > > harm. Some movements increase the rights of 
> one group
> > at  the
> > > expense of others. Some do better  than
> that. Civil
> > rights  is
> > > the broadest and best  model I can think of.
> 
> > > 
> > > But  almost any  movement comes with
> its own
> > political
> > > framework and  can  usually be placed
> in a fairly
> > small region
> > > of  the political spectrum.  If we look
> at
> > permaculture as a
> >  > movement, it's in the quite left-wing, 
> >  Earth-worshipping,
> > > hippie-descended, middle and upper middle 
> class, 
> > etc, etc,
> > > region, with a modest number of  outliers
> included.
> > A  narrow
> > > slice. Who else would  even be arguing about
> working
> > with  the
> > >  army?
> > > 
> > > So what are the odds of a movement
> like   this
> > getting a wide
> > > reception? To anyone outside of 
> permaculture's 
> > primary
> > > political clique, the  "movement" baggage
> poses a huge
> > >  hurdle. It's possible that  as a
> movement
> > permaculture can do
> > > the same  for  ecological consciousness
> that the
> > civil rights
> > > movement  did for  racial
> consciousness. But there
> > are some
> > >  big differences. The civil  rights
> movement as a
> > whole  was
> > > not a methodology or a set of  principles;
> it
> >  wasn't
> > > primarily holding classes or looking to be 
> >  taught in
> > > universities. It had one easily grasped central
> >  point:  equal
> > > rights for all races. We can't define our 
> central
> > point,  if
> > > we have one, in less than a fat  black book
> or a
> > two-week
> > >  course. And a politicized  movement is
> not going
> > to be
> > > invited into  schools or  local
> governments or
> > churches or
> > > other institutions  except  in those
> instances
> > where the
> > > politics of the  institution match that of 
> > permaculture
> > > activists.  Civil rights had to batter its
> way in, at
> > a  very
> > >  high personal cost t
> > >  o many. Is that what we want  to 
> do? I
> > think that is an
> > > unnecessarily difficult road for  us to
> take;  the
> > design
> > > standpoint will reach people  much more
> quickly. 
> > Permaculture
> > > as a movement won't  be invited anywhere
> that the
> > politics  or
> > >  socio-economic groundings don't match the
> movement's.
> > A
> >  >  design approach, however, will be
> welcomed
> > almost  anywhere.
> > > That's why  I'd like to see the design
> side  of
> > permaculture
> > > emphasized over the  movement  aspect.
> > > 
> > > Also, I don't see the ethical basis  of 
> > permaculture as an
> > > impediment. Who is going to  argue against
> caring 
> > for the
> > > Earth and people? The  ethics are bland
> enough to
> > appeal  to
> > > all. The fact  that permaculture involves
> ethics is
> > quite
> > >  radical,  but even very conservative
> groups grasp
> > the need
> > > for  ethical  guidelines. That part can
> have wide
> > appeal. A
> >  > left-ish movement  doesn't.
> > > 
> > > I do often  think of myself as part of a 
> > movement--who
> > > doesn't  want to belong to a tribe? But
> political 
> > movement
> > >  design and process are very different from
> those
> > of  an
> >  > ecological design system. Maybe our failure
> to
> > identify  and
> > >  deal with the distinction is why
> permaculture
> >  has made so
> > > little  progress in 30 years. I think
> there  are
> > some good
> > > things to be learned  from pursuing 
> this a bit.
> > > 
> > > Toby
> > >   http://patternliteracy.com

> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> >  > On Aug 16, 2010,  at 4:28 PM, rafter
> sass wrote:
> > >  
> > > > Hey Toby,
> > > >  
> > > > As  usual, I'm crazy about your
> response, in
> > tone,
> > >   quality of thinking, and
> content.
> > > > 
> > > > All  except for  the third
> paragraph where,
> > for reasons
> > > I  can't fathom, you  redefine
> > > > the concept of  "movement"  - and
> by 
> > implication,
> > > movement  participants -
> > > > as simpleton  ideological cliques.
> It  bears
> > no relation
> > > to any recognizable
> > >   > definition of social
> movement. 
> > > > 
> > > > Why,  Toby,  why? [insert wringing
> of hands]
> > > > 
> > >  > Why work to isolate  Pc from the
> inspiring
> > history,  and
> > > critical present-day
> > > >  reality of  global social
> movements?
> > Advocate for your
> > > vision of  Pc,  please.
> > > > It's needed. Plus I mostly agree with
> you.  ;) 
> > >  > 
> > > > But don't paint this distorted  picture
> of social
> > >  movements. 
> > > > 
> >  > > Do I agree with you about avoiding 
> > evangelism,
> >  > self-righteousness,
> > > > and "purity vs.  pollution" 
> thinking?
> > Absolutely. And
> > > the distribution of  these
> > >  > traits - on this list alone! - makes
> it
> >  clear that
> > > there is no  correlation with 
> > > >  the trait of movement thinking. 
> > > >  
> > > >  Permaculture is a design approach and
> a movement
> > at
> > >  the  very same time - if you use
> > > > a recognizable  definition of 
> movement. (I
> > guess I'm
> > > camping in  both of your camps.) 
> > > >  
> > > > It is  certainly not unique among
> movements. It's
> > a
> > >  fellow  traveller with many other 
> > > > examples of: large numbers  of 
> people
> > working together
> > > in a more-or-less  organized, 
> > > >  more-or-less spontaneous fashion,
> to  make
> > the world
> > > safe, just, and  sustainable. (Check 
> out
> > Hawken's
> > > > Blessed Unrest to see this
> point   made in
> > vastly more
> > > detail.) Like other grassroots 
> movements,  it's
> > > > not pure, it's not objective, and to 
> the degree
> > that
> > >  it's adherents are self-righteous 
> evangelical
> > > > nincompoops, it  will fail!
> > >  > 
> > > > Every significant historical gain in 
> >  freedom,
> > > worldwide, has been fought for and won -
> > >  > not  through some idealized,
> objective,
> > design
> > >  practice, but through messy, 
> difficult social
> > movements.
> >  > > Furthermore, they've been fought
> for  with
> > tactics  of
> > > disruptive protest, among other tools in the
> >  toolbox.  
> > > > It's bad form, to say the least, for
> white  males
> > in
> > > the  North, like you and me, to foster 
> ignorance
> > of that
> > > fact.
> > > >  
> >  > > Likewise for so much of the
> significant defenses
> > of
> >  >  ecological health that we've been
> able to
> > accomplish -  
> > > > c.f. the  success of the disruptive,
> >  law-breaking,
> > > anti-nuke movement here at  home. Do
> you  think
> > > > that we'll get decent climate
> treaties,  or 
> > stop
> > > mountaintop removal mining, without
> >  > > the pressure  brought to bear by
> disruptive
> >  protest,
> > > and the movements that 
> > >  > make it  happen? History tells
> us,
> > decisively, "No."
> > > > 
> >  >  > We can't do an end-run around
> the need to
> > think  about
> > > the  Permaculture milieu as a whole,
> by  focusing
> > > > on practice alone.  And we need
> to  regard
> > ourselves,
> > > our whole movement, as part of
> a   greater whole
> > -
> > > > and not only ecologically. We do  this
> so that
> > we  don't
> > > isolate ourselves from our  fellow
> travelers, so we 
> > > >  can share the crucial and  unique
> resources
> > that we
> > > bring, with the  folks most  prepared
> to make good
> > use of
> > > them. 
> > > >  
> > >  > And also because we need those other
> >  movements that we
> > > are making  this path with. 
> > >  > Permaculture alone won't get us the
> world
> > we  want -  a
> > > world that's worth living in.
> > > > 
> > >  >  Thank for all your incredible
> > contributions, Toby.  I'm
> > > confident that  you will receive this in 
> > >  > the spirit of collegiality and
> respect  in
> > which it  is
> > > intended.
> > > > 
> > > > Best,
> >  > >  Rafter
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > >  
> > > > 
> > > >  rafter sass
> > > >  liberationecology.org
> > > > 
> > > >>  From:  Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
> > > >>  Date:  August 16, 2010
> 10:38:59 AM EDT
> > > >> To:  permaculture  <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > >  >> Subject: Re:  [permaculture]
> Designing a
> >  Movement
> > > (was: Ethics of whatever)
> > >  >>  Reply-To: permaculture
> <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> >  >  >> 
> > > >> 
> > > >> rafter  wrote:
> > > >>  
> > > >>> Teaching Pc for,  and to,
> white
> > nationalists,
> > >  would be bad for the  movement. 
> > > >> 
> > > >> I think  this  gets to one of
> the central
> > confusions
> > > of this discussion,  and why  at times
> we are
> > talking past
> > > each other  (and BTW, I know someone
> who  taught a
> > PDC for
> > > white  ideologists, who told me that a lot
> of 
> > important
> > >  insights came out--for the instructor as
> well). 
> > >  >>  
> > > >> I think we fall into two camps: those
> > who   view
> > > permaculture as a movement, and those who view it
> as
> >  a
> > >  design approach. Of course, most of
> us--myself
> >  > included--hold portions  of both
> views, but I
> > think one  will
> > > predominate in each person.  
> > > >>  
> > > >> If you think of Pc as a movement, then
> > we   are
> > > activists who are trying to transform people's
> view  of
> > the
> > >  world, and we need everyone to see it
> our  way.
> > We are right.
> > >  Permaculture is then a  worldview, an
> ideology of
> > sorts, and
> > > people  need to  do it our way, or the
> wrong side
> > will win.
> > > And our  ideology  needs to remain pure
> and
> > uncorrupted. 
> > > If  the wrong people  infiltrate us,
> permaculture
> > will become
> >  > tainted, ruined, and it will  turn
> into something
> > we  don't
> > > want. You are either following it or
> not;   you're
> > with us or
> > > against us, and if you are against us,  you
> need
> > to  be
> > > transformed.You can see that I don't  like
> the idea of
> > Pc
> > >  being a movement, even though  I'm
> often caught
> > up in its
> > > evangelical  qualities.  And it's not a
> big step
> > from being a
> > > movement to being  a  cult, which some
> accuse
> > permaculture of
> > > being.  Some of the arguments  made
> here are
> > almost cult-like:
> >  > we have secret knowledge that needs
> to  be kept
> > from the  army
> > > or they will do harm with it. 
> > > >>   
> > > >> Or the other view: If permaculture is a
> >  design
> > >  approach, then at its essence it is a set
> of
> >  tools for
> > > Earth- and  people-care that is not
> dependent  on
> > belief or
> > > ideology. It can't be  corrupted 
> because its use
> > either does
> > > or doesn't follow the ethics  and 
> principles, and
> > it stops
> > > being permaculture  when those are not being
> 
> > adhered to. Or
> > > at least we  can say it is a poor or
> incomplete
> > use  of
> > >  permaculture. A person is either a good
> designer or a
> > poor
> >  >  one. You use the principles in your
> work or you
> > don't.  You
> > > use  ecological and social metrics to
> assess
> >  whether you've
> > > been  successful: As biodiversity up?
> Are  people
> > healthy?
> > > This puts the  responsibility on the 
> user, and
> > not on
> > > permaculture as a movement
> that   may be corrupted
> > by bad
> > > people.
> > > >>  
> > > >>  Larry Santoyo's phrase is useful
> here:
> > We  don't DO
> > > permaculture, we  USE permaculture in what
> we  do.
> > Activists
> > > in a movement do  permaculture. 
> Designers use
> > permaculture in
> > > what they do. If the  army  uses
> permaculture, it
> > will result
> > > in Earth  care and people care. If it 
> doesn't
> > have that
> > >  result, then they aren't using
> permaculture;
> > they  are
> >  > ideologists applying capitalist/corporate
> ideology to
> > yet
> >  >  another tool they have made poor use
> of. If we
> > don't  teach
> > > them  permaculture, there is no chance of
> them
> >  doing the good
> > > it can do. It  cannot make them worse,
> in  my
> > view. It will
> > > either be abandoned by  them, or it 
> will make
> > them good
> > > designers of healthy systems.
> >  >  >> 
> > > >> Again, I think "go where you  are
> > invited"  applies.
> > > I have no intention of trying  to transform
> the
> > army  with
> > > permaculture: that's  ideology.  But if
> they come
> > to  me
> > > to ask how  they can use permaculture to
> have
> > ecologically
> > >  and  socially successful and sound
> projects, I'll
> > be there.
> > >  The student  must be ready for the
> teacher, or
> > there will  be
> > > no learning. 
> > >  >> 
> > >  >> And incidentally, I've really
> > appreciated  what
> >  > Rafter and manyy others have written here,
> especially
> > the
> >  >  Rafter/Scott dialog. Thanks for a
> thought
> > provoking  thread.
> > > 
> > >  >> 
> > > >> And,  Cory and all: Permaculture
> is
> > already  being
> > > taught  in over 25 universities in the US
> alone, at
> > last
> > >   count.
> > > >> 
> > > >> And: I absolutely approve,  as
> Kevin 
> > suggested, of
> > > making the ethics,  principles, and
> curriculum
> > much  clearer
> > > and less  subject to wild interpretations.
> Hence the
> > need  for
> > >  organizations that link permaculturists
> together,
> > > >>   
> > > >> Toby
> > > >>  http://patternliteracy.com
> > >  >> 
> > > >>  
> > > >> 
> > > >> On Aug 12,  2010, at 2:55  PM,
> rafter
> > sass wrote:
> > > >> 
> > >  >>  
> > > >>
> >  _______________________________________________
> > >  >>  permaculture mailing list
> > > >>   permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > >>   http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > >  
> > >  >
> >  _______________________________________________
> > > >  permaculture  mailing list
> > > >  permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > >  Subscribe or  unsubscribe here:
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> > > >  Google  command to search
> archives:
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> > >   searchstring
> > > 
> >
> >   _______________________________________________
> > > permaculture  mailing  list
> > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > >  Subscribe or unsubscribe  here:
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> > >   Google command to search
> archives:
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> > >   searchstring
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >  _______________________________________________
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> > 
> 
> 
> 
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