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  • From: Andrew McSwain <aeromax.way@gmail.com>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] Designing a Movement (was: Ethics of whatever)
  • Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 10:42:56 +0430

Wow...well said Rafter. And I do appreciate Kevin and others for delving
into this hard topic and sticking with it. We do benefit -as a movement if
thats what this is-from the conversation.

I agree, thanks Kevin! Just because we disagree with you doesn't mean that
we dislike or disrespect you. On the contrary! :D Thanks again for inciting
such an interesting and necessary discussion!


Jono:

"I do hear a need to clarify the ethics/values of this movement. I dont
imagine a consensus arising so I dont know what this looks like. But there
are communities that may be using permaculture strategies, using the name
permaculture, and are definitely not within the ethics we hold to. Movements
get co-opted, watered down, and infiltrated. One defense (besides our own
military) is to be in discussion, move towards consensus, and know when its
not permaculture."

I agree that you guys are definately onto something here with your viewpoint
about the movement being watered down and whatnot. I can say with experience
that Permaculture is being watered down, but I can also say with experience
that it isn't only happening in the communities that have radical political
views.

I attended a permaculture design course at The Farm in Summersville Texas,
and I gotta say that I was pretty displeased with the quality of the
teaching and the depth of the work. There was no permaculture on the site
at the time. We basically paid them to do their research for them. Which
from a pedagogical stand-point I am all for. There is no better way than
learning by doing. It's just that the quality and depth of the material was
very questionable. Perhaps I was expecting too much from a 6 day course..

Anywho, not to say that the Summersville guys aren't amazing (which they
are), or that I am a reliable source for the course (I showed up late and
left early.. lol). I am drawing from my own experience, as limited as it may
be, to suggest the very real, and likely possibility, that many of our very
own "liberals left wings" are watering down the lessons through lazy
teaching, low expectations of student's capacities and previous experiences,
and the likes.

It's not just the right wing crazies that could screw things up for us. So
while we are focusing on how political views might screw up how clearly and
effectively permaculture is *taught*, *learned *and* subsequently applied.*
..

..we should instead be thinking about how the *way we teach permaculture *will
affect the way permaculture is *learned *and *subsequently applied*.

That makes more sense, right?


Then if as a consensus we come to the conclusion that our pedagogical
methods are not sound, then the necessary additions and modifications should
be included in the course for teaching permaculture. Are pedogical methods
and theories, teaching techniques, included in the course to become a
certified permaculture instructor?

Andrew McSwain


On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 8:42 AM, Lawrence F. London, Jr. <
venaurafarm@bellsouth.net> wrote:

> On 8/14/2010 11:42 PM, Jono Neiger wrote:
>
>> Wow...well said Rafter. And I do appreciate Kevin and others for delving
>> into this hard topic and sticking with it. We do benefit -as a movement if
>> thats what this is-from the conversation.
>>
>> I do hear a need to clarify the ethics/values of this movement. I dont
>> imagine a consensus arising so I dont know what this looks like. But there
>> are communities that may be using permaculture strategies, using the name
>> permaculture, and are definitely not within the ethics we hold to.
>> Movements
>> get co-opted, watered down, and infiltrated. One defense (besides our own
>> military) is to be in discussion, move towards consensus, and know when
>> its
>> not permaculture.
>>
>
> Bringing the people/groups Kevin objects to "allowing in the permaculture
> movement" into the fold may well neutralize their
> unpleasantness as opposed to excluding them and causing alienation,
> giving them a reason to feel persecuted or discriminated against and making
> them worse and for a longer period of time.
>
> I think a lot of the right wing fascists are more bark than bite as
> basically they are like everybody else with the same basic needs, i.e. they
> are more like sheep than wolves and there is no need to fear or resent them.
> By creating a regulatory "platform" excluding them you would only be doing
> exactly what you accuse them of, being discriminatory, narrow minded bigots.
>
> White and blue collar workers who are the ones mostly associated with the
> right wing extremist/radical splinter groups Kevin refers to are the people
> who contributed the most to all the US war efforts and also started and kept
> alive the Victory Garden movement, farmland conservation, wildlife
> conservation, permaculture-like homesteading and so much more. Now is the
> time to bring them to permaculture, not alienate them. I very much object to
> Kevin's "proposal for new permaculture platform" to exclude them from the
> movement. Sounds just like something Stalin would have done, or any other
> totalitarian dictator. Such a proposal suggests some control freak on a
> power trip wanting to cause a lot of trouble for others. Time to wake up; we
> are seeing just this sort of behavior in US politics; witness SB 510, raids
> on health food stores and farms and who knows what is yet to come. We need
> to be inclusive as a permaculture community, not exclusive, seriously.
>
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--
Andrew Edwin McSwain
055(11)6785-1176 (São Paulo)
01(501)681-0439 (United States)




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