permaculture

[LBUZZELL@aol.com]

Hi Cory, Toby and everyone interested...
 
Santa Barbara City College is now teaching permaculture.  Dr. Adam  Green 
of the Environmental Studies department has been inspirational in this  
regard.
 
Linda
 
 
In a message dated 8/19/2010 12:48:01 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
cory8570@yahoo.com writes:

Toby,  

Thank you for your well-stated and thought provoking response, I agree  
utterly. The principles work, period, because they are based on natural law.  
It doesn't matter who uses them, if they aren't used properly, they don't 
work  as well or at all. 

I would love a list of the universities  permauclture is taught in - this 
would be very helpful for some projects I'm  involved with. I'm aware of a 
few, but not all 25. I would like it to be all  of them! As well as high 
schools, trade schools, etc. I'm trying to do my part  to contribute to that.

Best, Cory
permacultureguild.us

--- On  Mon, 8/16/10, Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>  wrote:

> From: Toby Hemenway  <toby@patternliteracy.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Designing  a Movement (was: Ethics of 
whatever)
> To: "permaculture"  <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Date: Monday, August 16, 2010,  7:38 AM
> rafter wrote:
> 
> > Teaching Pc for, and to,  white nationalists, would be
> bad for the movement. 
> 
> I  think this gets to one of the central confusions of this
> discussion,  and why at times we are talking past each other
> (and BTW, I know  someone who taught a PDC for white
> ideologists, who told me that a lot  of important insights
> came out--for the instructor as well). 
>  
> I think we fall into two camps: those who view permaculture
>  as a movement, and those who view it as a design approach.
> Of course,  most of us--myself included--hold portions of
> both views, but I think  one will predominate in each person.
> 
> 
> If you think of  Pc as a movement, then we are activists who
> are trying to transform  people's view of the world, and we
> need everyone to see it our way. We  are right. Permaculture
> is then a worldview, an ideology of sorts, and  people need
> to do it our way, or the wrong side will win. And  our
> ideology needs to remain pure and uncorrupted.  If  the
> wrong people infiltrate us, permaculture will become
>  tainted, ruined, and it will turn into something we don't
> want. You  are either following it or not; you're with us or
> against us, and if  you are against us, you need to be
> transformed.You can see that I  don't like the idea of Pc
> being a movement, even though I'm often  caught up in its
> evangelical qualities. And it's not a big step from  being a
> movement to being a cult, which some accuse permaculture  of
> being. Some of the arguments made here are almost  cult-like:
> we have secret knowledge that needs to be kept from the  army
> or they will do harm with it. 
> 
> Or the other  view: If permaculture is a design approach,
> then at its essence it is  a set of tools for Earth- and
> people-care that is not dependent on  belief or ideology. It
> can't be corrupted because its use either does  or doesn't
> follow the ethics and principles, and it stops  being
> permaculture when those are not being adhered to. Or at
>  least we can say it is a poor or incomplete use of
> permaculture. A  person is either a good designer or a poor
> one. You use the principles  in your work or you don't. You
> use ecological and social metrics to  assess whether you've
> been successful: As biodiversity up? Are people  healthy?
> This puts the responsibility on the user, and not on
>  permaculture as a movement that may be corrupted by bad
>  people.
> 
> Larry Santoyo's phrase is useful here: We don't  DO
> permaculture, we USE permaculture in what we do. Activists
>  in a movement do permaculture. Designers use permaculture in
> what they  do. If the army uses permaculture, it will result
> in Earth care and  people care. If it doesn't have that
> result, then they aren't using  permaculture; they are
> ideologists applying capitalist/corporate  ideology to yet
> another tool they have made poor use of. If we don't  teach
> them permaculture, there is no chance of them doing the  good
> it can do. It cannot make them worse, in my view. It will
>  either be abandoned by them, or it will make them good
> designers of  healthy systems.
> 
> Again, I think "go where you are invited"  applies. I have
> no intention of trying to transform the army  with
> permaculture: that's ideology.  But if they come to  me
> to ask how they can use permaculture to have ecologically
>  and socially successful and sound projects, I'll be there.
> The student  must be ready for the teacher, or there will be
> no learning. 
>  
> And incidentally, I've really appreciated what Rafter and
>  manyy others have written here, especially the Rafter/Scott
> dialog.  Thanks for a thought provoking thread. 
> 
> And, Cory and all:  Permaculture is already being taught in
> over 25 universities in the US  alone, at last count.
> 
> And: I absolutely approve, as Kevin  suggested, of making
> the ethics, principles, and curriculum much  clearer and less
> subject to wild interpretations. Hence the need  for
> organizations that link permaculturists together,
> 
>  Toby
> http://patternliteracy.com
> 
> 
> 
> On  Aug 12, 2010, at 2:55 PM, rafter sass wrote:
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