permaculture

[kevin skvorak <k.skvorak@gmail.com>]

hey folks,

before everyone gets too bored with this, i want to add a couple more
things.

1)  i hope that we get to the return to the intent of original thread at
some point, which was the question of how we implement and communicate our
own principles  and how that works for or against us in growing our PC
"movement"  I am gratified that folks have seen this particular example as
useful in this. Rafter's original post hit it out of the park as far as i am
concerened, and was so clear and well reasoned that it deserves much, much
greater attention.

2) Whatever we may each believe,  the observable facts are that this
(working with the US occupation forces) is going to turn some people away
from PC.  Is it OK if we lose those folks?  IMO it is not.  I happen to
believe that  the "radical/social justice/environmental activists" etc bring
ALOT to any movement they are behind.  they usually think and try to act as
community organizers, behave strategically to the best of their ability,
have real passion, are willing to  personally sacrifice money/rewards etc
etc.  It remains a huge loss to the PC movement that it is percieved as a
"green capitalist pyramid scheme"  by such folks.   I also believe the fuzzy
logic expressed in many of these posts is evidence that we still have a long
way to go in regards to the collective strategic/analytical/self critical
thinking that is part and parcel of radical communities/social ecologies.

As far as the points Scott made below, re "third world" people having the
autonomy to think for themselves about these issues, i wholeheartedly agree,
and this is the reality that keeps me from feelinng too worked up about this
all.    The rest of the statements  Scott made about the  minimal impact
that 14 nat guardsmen could actually ever make, only seems to go against his
position, and reinforces that for whatever tiny positive influence it may
have, the PR cost for us is not worth it.  And of course i maintain  that
any belief that PC trainings can do anything all all to actually
change/alter/transform the US military is pure magical thinking/fantasy  -
so in the end, all we are talking about is PR no?

 2) I am sorry that Scott has to feel attacked in this.  It is certainly not
useful for anyone to feel threatened, attacked, unsafe etc.  It is not the
most conducive context from which to embrace change, or help others. Along
these lines tho, I do want to call you out Scott and LL, for consistently
using dominating, dismissive, and (on more than one occasion) abusive
language towards others who disagree with you.  This is plain fucking wrong,
and are the methods used by violent, patriarchal, dominating institutions
like the US military. Perhaps this is why you are so enamored of an
assasins' assasin like Mc Chrystal?   And  the patriarchal, dismissive- "you
are all idiots, and don't have the special insight i do" -perspective that
you and LL keep expressing, just does not fly these days, and you are
probably going to have to do better than that if you want to convince people
of your position in any case.

again,
with respect,
kevin




Message: 7
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 10:41:19 -0600
From: "Scott Pittman" <scott@permaculture.org>
To: "'permaculture'" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] on an ethics of Mr Pittman (and the US
       military)
Message-ID: <
1151070B17DE46489A5C819370CCF193@ScottPC>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"

This has become a little tedious, having to listen to all the Monday nite
quarterbacks evaluate whether I considered this or that in providing a
course for the Army National Guard.  I have heard nothing new from anyone on
this list to add to the considerations already made before I made the
decision.



The teaching team that worked with me also added their considerations and
questions and we all agreed to do this.  I also questioned the chain of
command of decision making by the military.  Who initiated the requests for
technological assistance?  Who determined which village was selected?  Were
any seeds being imported into Afghanistan thereby threatening the genetic
integrity of thousands of years of plant breeding?



To imply that we were teaching a program in a U.S. post peak oil context is
absurd, I wouldn't do that in this country let alone Afghanistan.  So rather
than this being a discussion of how to interface with the institutions that
are most influential in destroying cultures and environments this is a free
for all over all of the things that might be wrong even making the attempt.



That some how this group of 14 national guardsmen imbedded in one small
rural village of Afghanistan will affect the way permaculture is seen in
Iran, Iraq, and Pakistan is a stretch and even if the ripples do reach that
far I have faith in the native intelligence of those cultures to check it
out on the web and other information sources before deciding out of hand
that it is another imperialistic trick.



Just to be clear I also worked in Haiti with a grant from the Corporate
Giant Mars and didn't find that permaculture was branded with the
Corporatist label in Cuba.  I think that many of the comments here are
reminiscent of "White Mans' Burden" or in loco parentis which views third
world cultures as not being capable of thoughtful assessment of whether
something makes sense or not.  I know from experience that if it makes sense
that they will use it and if it doesn't they will not.


>From all of the many respondents to the National Guard course only
responses
from the permaculture group have been negative, which maybe speaks to how
precious we have become.



I find many of the responses on this group to be distasteful in the sense
that they never rise above the obvious; I find that permaculture is a way
more complex system for such simplistic understandings and concerns.  I keep
looking for the meat in these communications and I only see white bread.







Scott Pittman

Director

Permaculture Institute

www.permaculture.org <http://www.permaculture.org/>