permaculture

[Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>]

Linda, 

I believe that our strength lies in diversity - we work in numerous countries 
with numerous types of people who come from a wide variety of backgrounds and 
paradigms. Teaching one class to a group of National Guardsmen hardly puts us 
"in bed" with an occupying army. It's not unlike planting one nitrogen fixing 
plant in a monocrop field. The effects won't be felt by the field at all, but 
who knows where the seeds will spread? This discussion might be more relevant 
if someone had taken on a contract to train the entire Army or Marine Corp, 
etc, in permaculture. 

Best, Cory

--- On Thu, 8/12/10, LBUZZELL@aol.com <LBUZZELL@aol.com> wrote:

> From: LBUZZELL@aol.com <LBUZZELL@aol.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] on an ethics of Mr Pittman (and the US military)
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Thursday, August 12, 2010, 2:14 PM
> Hi Cory,
>  
> Thanks for the clarification.  It's true that some
> psychiatrists were  
> involved as well. Dr. Ewen Cameron is a frightening example
> of a healing  
> professional gone wrong.
>  
> While I agree that the problems with psychologists and
> psychiatrists aren't 
>  an exact parallel, I believe it's wise to remember that in
> the pioneering 
> era of  Freud and Jung, when psychiatry and therapy
> were as young as 
> permaculture is  now, the new field of mental health
> was reasonably idealistic, 
> mostly talk  therapy and some notable free care social
> initiatives.  We've had  
> over 100 years to screw up the profession.  I'm sure
> the early pioneers  
> would be spinning in their graves at the field's current
> drug pushing,  
> mind-bending marketing research and military
> collusions.    Looking at this 
> history, I still feel it a cautionary tale for any
> new  profession thinking of 
> embedding itself in an occupying army. 
>  
> And yes of course Scott isn't doing anything like what some
> of today's  
> mental health military collaborators (what else can you
> call them?) are doing,  
> but I believe that permaculture should be cautious about
> taking even one 
> tiny  step along that road...
>  
> Linda
>  
>  
> In a message dated 8/12/2010 1:26:39 P.M. Pacific Daylight
> Time,  
> cory8570@yahoo.com
> writes:
> 
> Linda,  
> 
> The situation with psychiatrists/psychologists is quite
> different than  
> permaculture. Mainstream psychiatrists' main activity is
> using drugs,  
> electroshock, involuntary commitment and other invasive
> methods to treat  mental 
> symptoms - this is not a sustainable practice nor is it
> holistic. I am  aware 
> of the divisive camps within psychology, where some are
> more focused on  
> holistic, regenerative approaches and some are just
> referral services for drug  
> companies via MDs or psychiatrists. 
> 
> "Journey Into Madness" and other  documentation
> illustrates how 
> psychiatrists were in fact behind the CIA mind 
> control experiments on unsuspecting 
> Canadian and US citizens (MKULTRA), drug  and lobotomy
> experimentation on 
> prisoners and minorities, eugenics policies in  the US
> and Germany, etc. Some of 
> the most respected psychiatrists at  Universities were
> involved in 
> military/intelligence operations that led to use  of
> torture techniques throughout 
> the world in various military organizations  (Middle
> East, El Salvador, etc).  
> Psychiatrists do take the Hippocratic  Oath but
> obviously, there are a 
> number of them that have broken that oath.  They were
> not "co-opted" or 
> corrupted, it was their idea in the first place.  They
> (like Dr Ewen Camaron - 
> "psychic driving") were already doing these 
> experiments on their patients before 
> partnering with the military. 
> 
> I  can't see Scott (who was one of my instructors for
> my PDC) or any of the 
> rest  of us going down any such road. It is not the
> same thing, at all.  
> 
> Cory
> 
> --- On Thu, 8/12/10, LBUZZELL@aol.com 
> <LBUZZELL@aol.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > From: LBUZZELL@aol.com 
> <LBUZZELL@aol.com>
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] on an ethics of  Mr
> Pittman (and the US 
> military)
> > To:  permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > Date: Thursday, August 12, 2010, 1:05  PM
> > you might want to ask permaculture
> > activist Joshua Fattal  who has  been
> > > arrested by the Iranian government and
> accused  of
> > espionage whether  it
> > > would help him or others  like him that
> "permaculture"
> > is now
> > >  celebrated as a  US army reserve
> "hearts and
> > minds"
> > >   counterinsurgency/sustainment
> technique
> >  
> > I have to admit  that this point is hard to
> disagree
> >  with.   Permaculture 
> > was perhaps better off when it  was seen as a
> > politically  neutral Australian 
> > land and  people care system being used in many
> > countries  with widely  
> > different governmental systems, from Cuba to the US. 
> >   
> > Although I'm very sympathetic to Scott's and others'
> >  eagerness to spread  
> > permaculture far and wide, I must conclude  that
> it was a
> > mistake for world  
> > permaculture to get  involved with the
> first-world occupying
> > army in a third  
> >  world country, however eager the recruits were
> to learn
> > about   permaculture. 
> >  
> >  
> > Corporations have but one  motive: profit. Armies
> likewise
> > have but one  
> > motive: to  use force or other more subtle
> enforcement
> > methods to vanquish   
> > enemies.  Their aims and even techniques may
> appear to
> >  be beneficient,  but we 
> > must not be naive.  And even if we  view
> some military
> > as "good  guys," how 
> > does  permaculture make the distinction on a
> global level
> > without   politicizing 
> > itself?
> >  
> > Permaculture is an  exciting new profession and
> deserves to
> > flourish  
> >  independent of destructive entanglements. 
> I have seen
> >  similar  problems happen in 
> > my own field of mental health:  psychologists who
> got 
> > involved with the 
> > military  developed torture techniques for the
> CIA and
> > were,  alas,  actively 
> > involved at Abu Ghraib.  I realize we
> haven't  done
> > anything  like this yet -- 
> > but caution is needed.  The "psychology in the
> > military"  issue has split the 
> >  American Psychological Association into warring
> factions
> > for   years, some 
> > supporting those involved with the military and
> >  others  against.  
> >  
> > In just this short  dialogue I see the beginnings
> of similar
> > problems in  
> >  permaculture unless some clear ethical
> guidelines are laid
> > down to  prevent  
> > permaculture from being used by the military and 
> various
> > governments for their 
> >  own purposes.  Psychiatrists, by the way,
> avoided the
> > problems faced by the  
> >  psychologists because they take a Hippocratic
> oath that
> >  prevents them from 
> > doing  some of the unfortunate things a 
> few
> > psychologists have done.
> >  
> > Linda  Buzzell-Saltzman
> > 
> > 
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