permaculture

[Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>]

The thing that Nicholas and others are missing the boat on completely is that 
permaculture, as a design science, TRANSFORMS SYSTEMS.  Which means that if 
permaculture were truly applied to the US military, it would transform it 
into something completely different. It would no longer exist as it exists 
right now.

Start slow and small is a principle of permaculture. Transforming even one 
National Guardsman or US Army Corporal will create ripples and connections 
that can start undermining the unsustainable aspects of the system. 

It is IRRELEVENT to Josh's cause whether permaculture is used by the army or 
not.  All he has to do is tell people that it is a design science, that is 
apolitical, non-religious, and non-racist or classist and can be applied by 
any group - to the degree that it is applied, there will be LESS SUPPRESSION 
of those he is trying to help. 

If he can't get that across, then the people he is working with DON"T 
UNDERSTAND PERMACULTURE.  So what the hell is he doing then?  He isn't doing 
anything with permaculture if the insurgents or whoever don't understand that 
it transforms systems. If they get hung up on the army using it, then they 
don't get it and wont' benefit from it anyway so he may as well give up. 

Having worked in Haiti, Pine Ridge reservation, and South Central Los 
Angeles, I have found that activists working against oppressive systems have 
NO PROBLEM understanding how permaculture can benefit them regardless of who 
uses it.  They do not get hung up or turn against it because some 
establishment figure uses the word for some reason.  Jesus, give these people 
a little credit for having some intelligence, Nicholas.  How stupid do you 
think they are that YOU have to protect them from misunderstanding the 
subject by denying others opportunity to learn the science? Why do you feel 
you have the right or authority to dictate personally who gets to have 
permaculture and who doesn't?  Who are you to say who can benefit, who should 
benefit, or where it will do the most good? 

Why don't you stick to getting it across to those you want to work with, and 
let other grown adults and responsible people do what they feel is right in 
their own hearts?  It is truly arrogant for you (or anybody else) to second 
guess what a competent, experienced permaculturist like Scott, Toby, et al, 
is doing or why.  It is quite a condescending attitude, and neglect of the 
first principle of permaculture which is OBSERVE THE SYSTEM.  Look at the 
results before you jump to judgment of others.  That is basic people care - 
your judgment of these men and what they are doing shows a lack of 
understanding of people care, from my viewpoint. 

Best, Cory

--- On Wed, 8/11/10, Lawrence F. London, Jr. <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net> 
wrote:

> From: Lawrence F. London, Jr. <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] on an ethics of Mr Pittman (and the US military)
> To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Date: Wednesday, August 11, 2010, 12:12 AM
> On 8/11/2010 2:18 AM, Nicholas
> Roberts, Permaculture.coop wrote:
> > you might want to ask permaculture activist Joshua
> Fattal who has been
> > arrested by the Iranian government and accused of
> espionage whether it
> > would help him or others like him that "permaculture"
> is now
> > celebrated as a US army reserve "hearts and minds"
> > counterinsurgency/sustainment technique
> 
> Between a rock and a hard place kind of issue, eh?
> Much better that permaculture is used and promoted by the
> military.
> Its not the US military's fault but the Iranian
> government's.
> For them to not use permaculture as a tool would be a win
> for the Iranians.
> 
> > "Josh was an old friend from the States who was just
> joining them in
> > the Middle East, and has been described as someone who
> is “deeply
> > committed to issues of ecology and truly democratic
> politics,”
> > including “issues such as sustainable agriculture,
> food justice, and
> > permaculture.”
> > http://www.counterpunch.org/amster05252010.html
> 
> It is not the US' fault that Josh got caught by the Iranian
> fools. He should not have let himself get into a vulnerable
> position or play a Jesus Christ role to make his point; his
> fault entirely. That applies to anyone in any country.
> 
> > as to the ethical question, its impossible for the
> Fair Share or
> > People Care ethic of permaculture to be fully
> satisfied by a military
> > industrial sustainability complex.
> 
> That's totally politically correct ranting to hear yourself
> speak and is
> completely untrue. See my comment above. Better that they
> not use and promote PC at all eh? Ridiculous. You're just
> not thinking.
> 
> > there is a big difference between permaculture fair
> share/people care
> > sustainability and a security state sustainment
> 
> There's nothing new about that and is all the more reason
> for the military to use and promote permaculture as a tool
> for reaching
> and connecting with the indigenous populations in the
> countries where they are engaged militarily. The terrorist
> elements, like the morons in Iran, would love for us to back
> off such a strategy.
> 
> > the Marshall Plan was not the perfect
> military-industrial solution to
> > reconstruction of Europe, but it has set the model for
> sustainment...
> > first you destroy it, then you rebuild it with more
> perfect control...
> > the supply of logistics, infrastructure, engineering
> and materials is
> > sustainment.. via corporates and the army engineers
> 
> Maybe you'd like to explain that in full with accurate
> references.
> Again, I think you're ranting to hear yourself speak as
> your comments don't seem to add much to the discussion.
> 
> > maybe also search for Human Terrain System and compare
> to US army
> > reserve permaculture
> 
> "     
> HTS is a new proof-of-concept program, run by the U.S. Army
> Training and Doctrine Command (TRADOC), and serving the
> joint community. The near-term focus of the HTS program is
> to improve the military’s ability to understand the highly
> complex local socio-cultural environment in the areas where
> they are deployed; however, in the long-term, HTS hopes to
> assist the US government in understanding foreign countries
> and regions prior to an engagement within that region.
> 
>     * HTS was developed in response to identified
> gaps in commanders’ and staffs’ understanding of the
> local population and culture, and its impact on operational
> decisions; and poor transfer of specific socio-cultural
> knowledge to follow-on units.
>     * The HTS approach is to place the expertise
> and experience of social scientists and regional experts,
> coupled with reach-back, open-source research, directly in
> support of deployed units engaging in full-spectrum
> operations.
>     * HTS informs decision making at the
> tactical, operational and strategic levels.
>     * The HTS program is the first time that
> social science research and advising has been done
> systematically, on a large scale, and at the brigade level.
> "
> 
> I don't see anything wrong with this. I suppose you'd
> prefer they not use PC or HTS at all?
> 
> > The Human Terrain System (HTS) was established to
> assists Army Brigade
> > and Marine Corps Regiment Commanders and their staffs
> in Iraq and
> > Afghanistan better understand local cultures and
> social structures to
> > improve their units' operational effectiveness. This
> is sometimes
> > referred to as 'Human Terrain Mapping' (HTM).[1] The
> HTS utilizes
> > personnel with BAs, MAs, and PhDs in a social science
> including
> > (anthropology, sociology, political science,
> geography), regional
> > studies, and lingustics. HTS provides military
> commanders and staff
> > with an understanding of the local population by
> conducting
> > participant observation and interviews. That
> information is
> > interpreted and archived in various cultural
> information and knowledge
> > databases.
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Terrain_System
> > 
> > The Network of Concerned Anthropologists (NCA) is an
> independent ad
> > hoc network of anthropologists seeking to promote an
> ethical
> > anthropology.
> > http://sites.google.com/site/concernedanthropologists/
> > 
> > having said all this, Steve Cran (x AUS army), of
> Global
> > Sustainability Corps, does extreme permaculture in
> war/disaster zones
> > Timor, Uganda, Aceh working with former-combatants
> > http://globalsustainabilitycorps.org -
> have been suggesting he come to
> > the states and work with veterans and maybe the mil
> 
> http://globalsustainabilitycorps.org/
> 
> > its interesting to read the sustainment documents
> below and look at
> > the history of this kind of humanitarian imperialism
> .. also if you
> 
> Ridiculous statement, "humanitarian imperialism"; you sound
> like a narrow minded anti establishment weenie with his mind
> conveniently all made up with 100% anti-military bias. Maybe
> you need to break out of that mold. I've known people like
> that and they never do anything where he rubber meets the
> road, little more than puff more hot air and whine.
> 
> > read the book The Men Who Stare At Goats, it gives a
> disturbing take
> > on the original idealism of bringing the New Age to
> the US mil...
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Earth_Battalion
> > 
> > They will beat their swords into plowshares and their
> spears into
> > pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against
> nation, nor will
> > they train for war anymore. — Isaiah 2:4& 
> Micah 4:3
> 
> > from the US Military Doctrine*
> > 
> > Democratic Sustainment document
> > http://www.disam.dsca.mil/pubs/v.22_1/Ramsey.pdf
> > 
> > USA Counterinsurgency Doctrine
> > http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm3-24fd.pdf
> > 
> > Sustainment document
> > http://www.tradoc.army.mil/PAO/viwebpage/Pam%20hq%20pdfs/FM%204_0%20single%20pg%20hq.pdf
> 
> > i've written a bit about this in the past
> > 
> > Climate War: Apocalypse, Sustainment and Liberation
> > http://gaiapermaculture.com/projects/climatewar/blog/2009/06/09/climate-war-apocalypse-sustainment-and-liberation/
> > 
> > Climate War: just as the Cold War subsumed and defined
> the peace after World
> > War 2, the Climate War subsumes and defines the period
> after the Cold War.
> > The Cold War ideology on the US side was
> anti-communism. The Climate War
> > ideology (shared by most central governments) is
> anti-environmentalism, with
> > communists being replaced with terrorists and
> increasingly eco-terrorists.
> > Green is the new red, the FBI’s most wanted is an
> eco-terrorist.
> > Insurgencies have always been embedded in a place, and
> so, in reality, all
> > terrorists are fighting for rights to control an
> environment. The Climate
> > War is the Cold War within the context of climate
> change, peak oil, peak
> > debt, indeed peak everything. The US framework for
> managing the world,
> > within the context of Climate War, is Sustainment.
> > 
> > Sustainment: sustainment is an extension of the
> military term describing the
> > supply and operations of maintenance to military
> operations. Sustainment is
> > military-industrial supplied sustainability.
> > 
> > In the latest US
> > Counter-Insurgency military doctrine, Sustainment
> leads all
> > counter-insurgency operations. Within the Human
> Terrain System, hearts and
> > minds are won by the the supply of infrastructure and
> utilities. Sustainment
> > leads operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, the
> “civilian surge” is
> > sustainment. With the increasing instability of the
> climate system, the
> > global economic and geo-political system, sustainment
> will be supplied with
> > the strongest aspect of US national power; the
> military industrial complex.
> > Within the neo-liberal environment, the
> military-industrial compex is
> > increasingly privatised and fragmented.
> > 
> > As Noam Klein describes in Shock
> > Doctrine, disaster capitalism profits greatly from
> crisis, real or imagined,
> > and as the Climate War becomes the dominant organising
> principle for the
> > planet, through real and imagined crisis, sustainment
> supplied by
> > corporate-state military industrial system. This
> military industrial system
> > will seek to profit and expand from both the crisis of
> conflict, of
> > destruction of war and the maintenance of peace, and
> the rebuilding of
> > damaged systems.
> 
> And so your proposal is to DO exactly what? as opposed to
> wallowing for more years in comfy, smug, self-serving
> anti-war/imperialism/establishment/military rhetoric.
> 
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