Skip to Content.
Sympa Menu

permaculture - Re: [permaculture] Trends in (Meso)America ;-)

permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: permaculture

List archive

Chronological Thread  
  • From: christopher nesbitt <christopher.nesbitt@mmrfbz.org>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] Trends in (Meso)America ;-)
  • Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 14:28:42 -0600

Scott,

This is a tangent well off the original topic.

First, Maya people want what other people want, land for their families, a better future for their children (education is very important), to increase their standard of living, and to accumulate "things", TV, cars, clothes, computers, iPods, etc. They are no different than anybody else. Despite what people would like to believe, the Maya did not have a history of collective living before the conquest. Precolumbian Maya history is as filled with empire building, domination of smaller polities by larger polities, tribute and taxation, atrocities, murder, brutality, war and slaughter as the Romans, the Greeks, or post arrival Maya history. This is well documented in their own writing, and part of what made it relatively easy for the Spanish to defeat the highland Maya was that the Quiche and Kakchikel were at war with one another when the Spanish arrived. I agree with part of what you are saying, but not what looks to me like an implied assumption of cultural elevation. The Europeans were as brutal to the Maya as the Maya were to the other Maya, either other language speakers or other cities.

Second, the modern Maya make the same mistakes on land use that corn farmers do in Iowa, damaging the carrying capacity of their land for short term gain, although the situation here is exacerbated by fragile soils and less security in land tenure than the farmers in Iowa. Keep in mind that the ancient Maya deforested their land, too, and the collapse of their civilization is now believed by most archeologists to have been a result of overpopulation and climate change brought on by deforestation, so they were not "guardians of the commons" either. The desire of caucasians to attribute bad practices as a consequence of colonization is common, but wrong. Poor land use patterns here are not a consequence of the conquest, they are a consequence of being human.

Thirdly, to get to the level of sophistication of the ancient Maya, with their highly evolved esthetic, the cultural/artistic apogee of the Americas, their architectural and artistic achievements, their mathematics and astronomy required a level of surplus that was created by a rigidly stratified society, with royalty, a religious class, merchants, armies, peasants. The Maya had no socialist paradise. To create that wealth, that level of surplus required to sustain that sophistication involved an agricultural prowess that is staggering, and not completely understood, along with a pattern of dominating their neighbors. To get to that involved as much Bablyonian behaviour as any other large great society. The Maya the Spanish encountered were not pacifists, were not egalitarian, were no more culturally advanced than any other people of empire, but their art and cultural esthetic was, and remains distinct, enigmatic, and still enthralls most people who see it. It is a dim person who can walk the grounds of Tikal and not feel small and very temporary, who can look at the zoomophs and glyphs of the monumental writing at Quirigua and not feel the uniqueness embodied in the writing.

I have seen people ooh and aah about how spiritual the ancient Maya were, not realizing that to a captured enemy from Tikal, dragged, bound, and held at Caracol, tortured, for many years, ritually slaughtered, publicly, Guantanamo itself would seem like paradise.

The Maya, as sophisticated as they were in the Classic period, were brutal to one another, subjegating other polities, razing cities, enslaving their enemies, ritually slaughtering their foes, constantly at war, and made the same mistakes people have made over and over, overextending the population above the carrying capacity of the land, resulting in increased competition for resources, war, chronic malnutrition (late and terminal classic elite burials show signs of chronic malnutrition) and famine, which ultimately led to collapse and depopulation, especially of the southern Maya lowlands, which is where I am, and where the most impressive sites are. The Maya of today are more concerned with deforestation, there are dozens of Maya NGOs working on retaining forest cover, but they tide is towards more people and more forest lost and an eventual collapse, again. We have provided training in permaculture to people from these NGOs, and had agroforestry workshops for community members of communities they are working with.

Fourthly, the people here are just like people everywhere. People everywhere make short sited moves for quick material gain for the least energy expended possible, often with little thought to their grandchildrens grandchildren. Not everyone here is like that, just like not everyone anywhere is like that, but I imagine that most people here would like nothing more than a Wal Mart to appear, and a credit card to burn themselves into debt with.

Lastly, what you look at as "Maya" is how the Maya would look at Germans, French, Dutch, etc, as "European". They wear similar clothes, speak languages that appear to be similar (some are), and to an outsider they all seem to be more or less the same. However, the Maya make large distinctions between each other. There is distrust and often hostility between different Maya people, often rooted in animosities that are hundreds (or thousands) of years old. The Quiches and Kakchikel warred with one another, the Itza and Yucatec warred with one another. The Kekchi wiped out the Manche Chol, literally, (there are no more Chol speaking people, they were killed by the Kekchi, and any remnants were culturally/linguistically absorbed by the Kekchi). The Tzutuhil do not trust the Kakchikel, etc, etc, etc. Here in Belize, the Mopan look down on the Kekchi as being unsophisticated bumpkins, new arrivals to Belize (having crossed into Belize in the late 1890s). There is not, and never has been, a monolithic "Maya".

The history of the Maya of Guatemala is a brutal history, both pre- conquest and post-conquest, especially the last 40 years, one that the US paid for (via the Israelis after Carter suspended military aid to the Guatemalans, and the reason all their soldiers carried Galils in the late 70 and early 1980s), and that I agree with you %110. Many of the Maya in Belize, the Kekchi, especially, emigrated to Belize to escape those very problems. I was in Guatemala a lot in the 1980s, and know a lot about what happened there. As a young man, I went through numerous checkpoints in the Peten for both the army and the EGRP, the largest guerilla group in the Peten, and each time was terrifying. For a lot of reasons that I will not go into here, I understand the horrors of at least the mid 1980s through the Peace accord of 1996 in Maya communities.

Returning to where I am today, I live in an ancient city. There are dozens of house mounds here, and nearby Lubantuun was a major ceremonial site and trade site (albeit with a complete lack of monumental writing, no stellae). My house sits on a plaza, there are ruins all around. A site, Uxbentun, straddles this land, and was a suburb of Lubantuun (where they allegedly found the crystal skull). I estimate that in the viewscape that now holds one family across the river there were 100-130 households, and on this 70 acres there are another 50 house mounds, terraces, plazas, a small temple. Maya households today have 6-12 people in them, so we are looking at land that held thousands of people. At one point this was a busy place. Now? Its empty. They were so successful that.... they exceeded the carrying capacity of their land... etc. The 150 year period of 850-1000AD saw the last monumental inscriptions on all the large cities in the southern lowlands, as one by one they were all abandoned. They made the same mistakes being made now. Belize will be Haiti in 100 years, not because of the conquest, or cultural scarring related to the conquest, but because people are people.

We know that the ancient Maya had very sophisticated agricultural systems because they were able to maintain high population densities and maintain non-calorically productive classes like royalty, religious classes, demi-royalty, a thriving merchant class (I find obsidian and jade here, no local sources for that, which were traded hundreds of miles), standing armies, and they did this without the wheel, without beasts of burden, with no trucks, without chainsaws, with no herbicides, or fertilizers, or hybrid seed, or bic lighters, all tools the modern Maya have. Right now, your average milpero manages through hard work, careful planning and a dose of luck to break even, for life. There is seldom much surplus. I believe the ancient Maya practiced agroforestry here, though near here in the swamps out of the hills, it is believed they practiced chinampa. This is supported by many archeologists, including Dr. Annabel Ford and her work up at El Pilar with ramon nut. Whatever they were doing they did it right for a very long time... and then their population exceeded the ability of their land to support them, and... the rest is "history".

As far as conversion not being spiritual, I was in a back village up at the border sometime in the early 1990s, and on a weekend I got to witness two Pentecostal meetings (at the same time) where a bunch of 50 year old Maya ladies cut loose, dancing with what can only be described as wild abandon, doing amazing impersonations of tweakers on a 14 hour ecstasy binge at a rave at dawn on the beaches of Goa. Ecstatic dancing is a form of spirituality. The preachers preached in southern bible thumping manner, all Jesus wheezing... speaking in tongues, just like a television evangelist. They had the rythm, the cadence, the same message, everything, neatly translated into Kekchi. I am not religious, but I have to say that many of those people were filled with... something, love of God, the holy spirit, hysteria, demons, hahaha, I don't know, but it was real, and it was impressive, and... just a bit scary. There were no Spanish people there, no instruments of the government, this was not coerced. The preachers were Guatemalan Kekchi. The Catholic church had 7 men and a guitar that night, a subdued affair. I stopped by because I was staying in the Catholic school, and hung out. It seemed much more calm place to be. The Pentecosts had these two competing rally's with two sound systems and two preachers, trying to out sing each other in waves of halallulah-aggression ay one another, very, very weird. People came from villages on both sides of the border in droves. There were perhaps 30 households in the village, certainly less than 200 people, but well over 600 people showed up for this event.

I was just talking with a friend who is an archeologist who works in Belize annually, who has been to that community for field work, and we both agreed that the evangelists are a double edged sword, part of the general cultural erosion, but also positive in eliminating alcohol, reducing domestic abuse, etc. Seeing Maya ladies be able to really cut loose made me admire this outlet for ectstatic dancing, something they really don't have chances to do very often. Maya ladies have very rigidly defined roles in life, and ecstasy is not a part of it.

There is also the evolving culture of dependency, where by a new pastor opens a church, hands out money and "things" and gets "converts", and this is a problem on other levels... a whole other topic! Perhaps for another day.

The only generalization I would make is that people are people, and people do what people do.

Thanks for enduring my rant. Hahahah, sorry if it is a bit unfocused, but there is so much tied together that it is hard to tell one part without some reference for context.

Christopher


Please see:
"The Conquest of the Last Maya Kingdom" to hear about the last post classic southern Maya lowland site and how that ended (really dense, and I hope you want to know all about Mopan Maya family names, and Itza political structure in the late 17th century...)
"The Fall of the Ancient Maya", an excellent book that is very accessible. Puts forth several hypothesis on the collapse and leaves the reader to think about them.
""Copan, The Rise and Fall of an Ancient Maya Kingdom" for a very detailed look at the terminal classic period of the ancient Maya at one site.
"Popul Vuh" is the Quiche Maya story of creation, and is an excellent source of information regarding Maya cosmology and life before and on the eve of the conquest.







On Oct 30, 2008, at 9:32 PM, Scott Pittman wrote:

What you describe, Christopher, is endemic to colonized cultures around the
world. We can't begin to understand the horrors that have been visited on
these people and it has fractured their cultures and wounded them
individually for over 400 years. To me most of the world is suffering Post
Traumatic Stress Syndrome from their ancestral experience of being held
hostage by another culture.

This process is still going on, though in more subtle ways, today. What all
this indicates is that there is so much trauma involved that one can't make
any general conclusions about behavior or patterns.

If you look at the Maya of Guatemala what you see is the end result of a
massive attempt at genocide within the last 40 years on top of the brutal
colonization of the Spaniards. So their conversion to evangelical
Christianity becomes a survival technique rather than some major religious
experience.

With the hand in hand exploitation of religious organizations, corporate
looters and political adventurism it is a wonder anyone survived at all.
Read "Thy Will Be Done" by Gerard Colby and Charlotte Bennett for an
overview of the collaboration of the Rockefellers and the religious
organization The Summer Language Institute to exploit the oil and other
resources in Ecuador and Peru.

With this background it comes as no surprise to me that these people aren't
too concerned with deforestation, keeping the commons tidy, or any of the
other "civilized" behavior patterns. There is a similar pattern of cultural
dysfunction in the Former Soviet Union where collectivization was enforced
by threat and violence - when that is removed things fall apart.

That should be enough for tonight. Thanks for tolerating my rant.



Scott Pittman
Director
Permaculture Institute
www.permaculture.org

-----Original Message-----
From: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of christopher
nesbitt
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 12:00 PM
To: permaculture
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Trends in America

Hi Steve and Toby,

I am going to make some observations of land tenure from the limited
perspective of living in proximity to indigenous communities, but am
not emotionally attached, am not attacking anybody. This is an
alternative view of the problems and benefits of land tenure in Maya
communities in southern Belize:

I have lived in a piece of land in southern Belize for the last 20
tears. When I bought it, I bought it cheap because it lacked road
access (still lacks road access), had no grid (still has no grid
electricity), and the land was severely damaged abandoned pasture land
and old citrus groves. I have used my labour, my thoughts, my
energies, income earned off the farm as well as income from the farm,
to rehabilitate the soil, make this land a beautiful farm, and to make
a very well established food forest, with many hundreds of species.

When I bought this land, I wanted to open it up to be a community. I
invited local people, and international people, and.... no one was
really interested. They all wanted to pursue their own thing, so I
pursued my own thing, too. I now have an Eden, which I intend to pass
on to my children, which I share through courses. Toby has taught
here, twice, and knows that we provide scholarships for participants
who can not afford to take the courses we offer (made possible by
teachers like Toby who are willing to facilitate scholarships).

If this land had been community owned, it would have all been burned
down and planted to corn years ago.

Moving on to the matter that you may not have considered: most people
in the developing world want private property, at least the people I
know. For the last 20 years, I have lived in San Pedro Columbia,
Toledo, Belize. My neighbors are mostly Kekchi Maya people who did
have community land tenure, and, as the book "the Tragedy of the
Commons" points out, community land was not always well managed. I am
not saying that it couldn't be, but my experience here has shown me
that, here at least, it is not. Fallow crop rotational cycles
appropriate for the types of soil we have here, 12-15 years, were not
observed when that land was everybody's and nobody's. The incentive
was, at the time, to chop it, burn it and plant it out to corn before
someone else did, resulting in shortened fallow cycles of 7 years, 5
years, 3 years, with the predictable decline in production and an
increased environmental cost of erosion, siltation, and fire damage
(we lost 50 acres of habitat to a caretaker for a privately owned
piece of land "managed" by absentee land owners this last year, though
the core areas of the farm were largely unaffected). Any one who
fallowed a piece of land for more than 7 years could expect to find
someone else clearing it for their milpa when they went out to their
farm.

Toby has been to two of the farms in San Pedro Columbia with well
developed agroforestry. One is Saul Garcias land, farmed for 40 years,
worthy of a book of its own, amazing levels of biodiversity both
between species and within species, and the other is Ignacio Ash's
farm, a very wel developed farm that is a cacao dominant polyculture
that has been in one family for 3 generations. He has also been to
Burton Caliz's farm, which is another farm that is amazing. These
farms are exceptional, and a common feature is that they are "owned",
that the person who established them expected to have something to
pass on to their children.

In 20 years time I have watched all the rainforest within a two hour
walk of the village chopped and burned up for corn. Lack of delineated
properties resulted in a land use pattern that is full of contention
and conflict, where the land was not stewarded for the long term
benefit of the community or for the land itself, and has kept this
community mired in stagnation, economically marginalized by a lack of
access to traditional avenues of credit (and this is not a debate
about wether or not that is a good thing) and with a social
prohibition on making long term investments in the land, like planting
cacao, enforced by sabotage, community censure, arson and violence.
Any attempt to plant long term crops like cacao or coffee, or timber
trees in association with cacao or coffee was seen as a resource grab.
Cattle pastures were not managed to avoid soil damage, because it was
not "theirs", and the way to show intention to use that land was
through not fallowing it.

Commonly owned land here resulted in greed, fear and division, too,
worse, in my opinion, than where property was delineated.

The few cacao farms in this watershed of any size are held by families
that managed to get their land titled back in the 1920s or 1950s, like
Ignacios, whose grandfather planted out most of the cacao he has. Saul
"stronged" his land and would probably have chopped anybody who tried
to steal it from him into several chunks a few years ago. He owned
that then and now by respect for his abilities and age, respectively.

Now, the land that provides the ecological services displaced by
shifting cultivation tends to be privately owned land. I allow people
to collect firewood from my land, for example, since their is no
firewood close to the village anymore, except on privately owned land.

Another community near hear is San Antonio village, a Mopan Maya
community that was established in 1840. San Antonio is very well
developed (if you like agroforestry, there is a section in the middle
of the village that is staggeringly productive, combining several back
yards to make a small carbon sink and block of habitat for birds that
is also very productive in food and cacao). The largest cacao farms in
Toledo are all owned by farmers in this village. Average acreage of
cacao farms in Maya communities is a bit over an acre. In this
community, the median acreahe is 4 acres, with several farms as large
as 12 acres. Some of the farms are being managed by the children or
even grandchildren of the initial farmer. San Antonio village is like
a garden, one of the prettiest villages in Toledo, and well developed.

San Antonio is a prosperous village. People invest their energies into
their land because it belongs to them.

Looking at San Antonio Village, and San Pedro Columbia we see one
community with property rights that has engaged in very sophisticated
agroforestry, land that is passed securely from generation to
generation, who can access credit to expand their farms, buy TVs,
build new houses, have shops, that is able to send children to school,
and another, that has also developed, but not as quickly, that is
still dependent (though less so) on shifting cultivation, that lacks
access to credit and has been marginalized at the boundary of the
currency based economy. Both of these communities are engaged in
agriculture. Both of these communities have access to the same
markets. Both of these communities are over 100 years old. One of
these communities is a nicer place to live (hahaha, and I don't live
there)!

San Antonio observes better agricultural practices on commonly owned
land, too, with 60 feet from any waterway kept forested, and the
school and church well taken care of, a pride in ther community that
is an extension of their pride in their farms.

There are some differences in the communities apart from property
rights. San Antionio is Mopan Maya, a lowland Maya in the Yucatecan
language group, and the Kekchi are a Quichean people, highland in
origin, who arrived in Belize after 300 years of perpetual
displacement. The Mopan came from San Luis Rey, Peten, with the
intention to settle that valley, a single movement to establish a
settlment, from a place very similar to San Antonio, same plants,
soils, weather patterns. The Kekchi in Columbia arrived as the front
end of a wave of the displaced of the displaced of the displaced, and
have a legacy of living for a few generations in one place and then
migrating, either by choice or external factors. They are from the
highlands, cooler, with a pronounced wet season and dry season, and
different plants. But, apart from that, right now, they both have
access to the same markets, the same level of service (clinics,
schools, extension services, hospitals). The biggest difference has
been their relationship with the land they farm.

There are people here who speak against private property for the Maya,
saying the communal land system is their culture (debatable, but
certainly the model since the Conquest). Most of these proponents own
their own land, if Maya, or are Caucasian, who own property back where
they come from. Most Maya people would like property they can pass to
their children, or use to access credit, and can increase the value of
by their labour, etc.

I am not debating the merits of access to credit, or economic
integration with the balance of the country and the global economy,
but it is worth noting that %99.9 of the farmers I know would like to
own their land, would like access to more money, would like all the
things that I suspect you enjoy or have access to, Steve, a computer,
an education for their children, a TV, a car, and they don't have
those things because with poor land tenure, making shifting
cultivation provide the bulk of their income (financial and caloric),
they are always two steps from a bad crop failure and loss.

San Pedro Columbia surveyed most of the land five years back and gave
the land to people. I wish I could say that was done transparently and
was painlessly, but it was not. It was done in the months before a
general election with the intention of gaining votes. I am sad to say
it worked, and that party swept into power for a second term (though
they lost the next election when they had no assets to give away).
Having aid that, most people got the land they were farming, and are
happy with this. They have also started planting out more tree crops,
and the overall health of that land is better as people have incentive
to manage it well, by planting long term crops, and to avoid burning
into their neighbors lands.

There is also a movement in Belize for land owners to set aside a
percentage of their land to be maintained as habitat and for the
ecological services wild areas provide, which is a whole other
subject. Their are talks about incentives for this, etc.

In closing I would say that the 30 prettiest farms I have seen (I
worked as the head of extension for a cacao cooperative here, and have
visited well over 400 farms in Belize, and dozens of farms in Costa
Rica, Panama, Guatemala, Nicaragua and Venezuela) have all been farms
where the owner had very secure land tenure, either property or long
term leased land, and an ability to transfer ownership to their
children. I am not saying that communal land doesn't work, or that
private property is a panacea that will solve all of the problems
facing farmers here (or anywhere), but that land here is better
maintained when the stakeholders have something to pass on to their
own children via secure property rights.

Just my .02.

I have to run, go plant some more trees.

In development,

Christopher







On Oct 30, 2008, at 1:26 AM, Steve Read wrote:

Hello, Toby Hemenway,

Interesting approach to extrapolte from one PDC and its mug praxis
to principles and strategies of land tenure; It reminds me too of
the platitudinous arguments that Thatcher & Co. put forward to
justify selling off the council owned housing, frankly I rarely saw
a run down council house except on estates that had been designanted
as 'problem' estates by the local council and were then therefore
following some strange logic of their own refilled with more
'problem' families. And then of course council blocks that fell into
disrepair and misuse becaus ethey were simply so badly designed.

Your argument also belies the fact that for prbably millenia humane
societies have enabled land tenure strategies that allowed
sustainable, durable use of commonly held assets. Th
e fatuous book 'Tragedy of the commons' has been massively
instrumental in creating a mythology around this subject. Your
argument also imo seems to betray a certian myopia, looking out the
window do I see a world where privately owned resources are not
destructively exploited, a world where privately property is tended
and nurtured for subsequent generations? Or do I see a world where
the traditional class layers have gone to be replaced by one big
squandering propertied class in the rich countries and those that
are becoming fatter? For myself I only have to go to the municipal
dump to see where private property ends up, even when still in good
condition.

I imagine that you personally however are tending well your private
patch of Earth, your private Eden.

And of course there's Renting property out, what a great way to
increase my income, living off the sweat and labour of others,
keeping the world split into have's and have nots and of course
expecting the people who are renting the property to look after it
as if it were their own, well how is it they can do that in rented
accomodation and yet wouldn't be able to do it in commonly held
accomodation?

I would however agree with you Toby that there is some education to
be done, its not difficult, one simply transports the emotional
content that one has for 'mine' to 'ours'. I frankly fail to see
that if we can't do this and that as designers we are not promoting
this how we are to move along towards sustainable interconnected
communities.

Buy the land and free it into a safe common legal entity, then help
people develop the capacity to nurture it, and in this I am speaking
too and perhaps in particular of the urban areas. This definately
seems to be the philosophy developing here in France.


Steve R





======= At 2008-10-30, 04:45:47 you wrote: =======

A story I may have told before: On opening day of a PDC, the venue
was
kind enough to put out mugs, each with a participant's name on it.
They
asked that each person be responsible for rinsing and putting away
their
own mug. The system worked beautifully; the classroom stayed free of
scattered mugs; each was back in the rack at the end of the day.
Then,
come our mid-class day off, the mugs were put through an industrial
sterilizer and the labels were removed. They went back to the
classroom
unlabeled. Within a few days, mugs were everywhere--under chairs, on
shelves, left outside, many full of molding tea leaves, and another
couple of dozen mugs had been commandeered from elsewhere since no
one
could find a clean mug and it was easier to grab another from the
stash.
Soon almost every mug the place had was in our classroom, dirty and
haphazardly stuck anywhere.

I was pretty surprised, since the participants seemed like decent
folks.
The lesson I took home was twofold: private ownership is one way to
encourage responsibility toward resources, and, a culture that is
used
to private ownership is liable to behave irresponsibly toward
resources
held in common.

Toby
http://patternliteracy.com



Nancy Frank wrote:
Steve -

I think it will be awhile before we get as far as we've come and
return to common land.

Nancy


_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
Google command to search archives:
site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring




= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


Best regards.
Steve Read
steveread@free.fr
2008-10-30


_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
Google command to search archives:
site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring





_____________________________
Christopher Nesbitt

Maya Mountain Research Farm
San Pedro Columbia, Toledo
PO 153 Punta Gorda Town, Toledo
BELIZE,
Central America

www.mmrfbz.org



_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
Google command to search archives:
site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring





--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.549 / Virus Database: 270.8.5/1756 - Release Date: 10/30/2008
7:59 AM


_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
Google command to search archives:
site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring





_____________________________
Christopher Nesbitt

Maya Mountain Research Farm
San Pedro Columbia, Toledo
PO 153 Punta Gorda Town, Toledo
BELIZE,
Central America

www.mmrfbz.org







Archive powered by MHonArc 2.6.24.

Top of Page