permaculture

["Steve Read" <steveread@free.fr>]

Hello, Toby Hemenway,

I don't knee jerk, in fact I reread my posts several times before sending, my 
contention that extrapolating from mugs as being fallacious and anodyne I 
believe still stands, no you didn't mention land yet how can issues of 
private ownership possibly not encompass land tenure issues, I was also 
responding not just to your post but to the developing theme in general.

In what way does iterating your "private ownership is /one way/ to encourage 
responsibility towards resources", in any way address the arguments I have 
presented about the isssues abounding around private ownership? As far as I 
can see in no way, yes I agree that education is needed for commons to be 
treated reasonably in most 'western' cultures, Yet all i see here is some 
contentions that private ownership is good; " accountability doesn't slow 
chipping and breakage but ownership does" how astonishingly specious can you 
get? Where/how does onwership slow chipping and breakage of mugs, or 
whatever, and has nobody ever seen privately owned gardens that have unmowed 
(great!) lawns and piles of trash? I most certainly have.

Yes Private versus Commons is an emotional issue, I try and stay calm and use 
moderated language but when confronted with blanket platitudes like "And care 
for the commons can't occur when all things are viewed as resources rather 
than as the sources of life." CAN'T? where does that come from ? And things 
Are resources but what we see with private ownership is "This is mine I will 
do with it as I please" and that attitude is supported by the State and that 
attitude is destroying the Earth. The traditional Commons resources were 
tended by all for the good of all, it was in their interests to so do or  all 
suffered.

If I'm  designing communities,  I am fully aware of the issues around 
population density and anomie I design with this as a factor.


SteveR

======= At 2008-10-30, 19:38:58 you wrote: =======

>Steve,
>
>Interesting that you would miss my specific qualifications that I hoped 
>would forestall exactly your knee-jerk. I wrote that (note emphasis):
> 
>"private ownership is /one way/ to encourage responsibility toward 
>resources,[not the only one, yes?] . . . and that a culture /that is 
>used to private ownership/ is liable to behave irresponsibly toward 
>resources held in common." You're the one doing the generalizing, not 
>me; I didn't mention land at all. The issue of private ownership sure is 
>an emotional trigger, isn't it!
>
>I've seen the arguments debunking Garret Hardin's book, too. I'm aware 
>that there is a long tradition in many places of responsible treatment 
>of the commons. Contemporary western culture isn't one of them, nor are 
>commons treated well in many overpopulated places.
>
>I like Kris's observation that having your name on a mug means everyone 
>knows who left it out. That's also part of creating a successful 
>commons: when a community grows so large as to allow anonymity, overuse 
>of the commons often results. And care for the commons can't occur when 
>all things are viewed as resources rather than as the sources of life.
>
>Toby
>http://patternliteracy.com
>
>
>Steve Read wrote:
>> Hello, Toby Hemenway,
>>
>> Interesting approach  to extrapolte from one PDC and its mug praxis to 
>> principles and strategies of land tenure; It reminds me too of the 
>> platitudinous arguments that Thatcher & Co. put forward to justify selling 
>> off the council owned housing, frankly I rarely saw a run down council 
>> house except on estates that had been designanted as 'problem' estates by 
>> the local council and were then therefore following some strange logic of 
>> their own refilled with more 'problem' families. And then of course 
>> council blocks that fell into disrepair and misuse becaus ethey were 
>> simply so badly designed.
>>
>> Your argument also belies the fact that for prbably millenia humane 
>> societies  have enabled land tenure strategies that allowed sustainable, 
>> durable use of commonly held assets. Th
>> e fatuous book 'Tragedy of the commons' has been massively instrumental in 
>> creating a mythology around this subject. Your argument also imo seems to 
>> betray a certian myopia, looking out the window do I see a world where 
>> privately owned resources are not destructively exploited, a world where 
>> privately property is tended and nurtured for subsequent generations? Or 
>> do I see a world where the traditional class layers have gone to be 
>> replaced by one big squandering propertied class in the rich countries and 
>> those that are becoming fatter? For myself I only have to go to the 
>> municipal dump to see where private property ends up, even when still in 
>> good condition.  
>>
>> I imagine that you personally however are tending well your private patch 
>> of Earth, your private Eden. 
>>
>> And of course there's Renting property out, what  a great way to increase 
>> my income, living off the sweat and labour of others, keeping the world 
>> split into have's and have nots and of course expecting the people who are 
>> renting the property to look after it as if it were their own, well how is 
>> it they can do that in rented accomodation and yet wouldn't be able to do 
>> it in commonly held accomodation?
>>
>> I would however agree with you Toby that there is some education to be 
>> done, its not difficult, one simply transports the emotional content that 
>> one has for 'mine' to 'ours'. I frankly fail to see that if we can't do 
>> this and that as designers we are not promoting this how we are to move 
>> along towards sustainable interconnected communities.
>>
>> Buy the land and free it into a safe common legal entity, then help people 
>> develop the capacity to nurture it, and in this I am speaking too and 
>> perhaps in particular of the urban areas. This definately seems to be the 
>> philosophy developing here in France.
>>
>>
>> Steve R
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ======= At 2008-10-30, 04:45:47 you wrote: =======
>>
>>   
>>> A story I may have told before: On opening day of a PDC, the venue was 
>>> kind enough to put out mugs, each with a participant's name on it. They 
>>> asked that each person be responsible for rinsing and putting away their 
>>> own mug. The system worked beautifully; the classroom stayed free of 
>>> scattered mugs; each was back in the rack at the end of the day. Then, 
>>> come our mid-class day off, the mugs were put through an industrial 
>>> sterilizer and the labels were removed. They went back to the classroom 
>>> unlabeled. Within a few days, mugs were everywhere--under chairs, on 
>>> shelves, left outside, many full of molding tea leaves, and another 
>>> couple of dozen mugs had been commandeered from elsewhere since no one 
>>> could find a clean mug and it was easier to grab another from the stash. 
>>> Soon almost every mug the place had was in our classroom, dirty and 
>>> haphazardly stuck anywhere.
>>>
>>> I was pretty surprised, since the participants seemed like decent folks. 
>>> The lesson I took home was twofold: private ownership is one way to 
>>> encourage responsibility toward resources, and, a culture that is used 
>>> to private ownership is liable to behave irresponsibly toward resources 
>>> held in common.
>>>
>>> Toby
>>> http://patternliteracy.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Nancy Frank wrote:
>>>     
>>>> Steve -
>>>>
>>>> I think it will be awhile before we get as far as we've come and  
>>>> return to common land.
>>>>
>>>> Nancy
>>>>
>>>>   
>>>>       
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> permaculture mailing list
>>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>>> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>>> Google command to search archives:
>>> site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     
>>
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>                      
>>
>> Best regards.                                 
>> Steve Read
>> steveread@free.fr
>> 2008-10-30
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> permaculture mailing list
>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>> Google command to search archives:
>> site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring
>>
>>
>>
>>   
>_______________________________________________
>permaculture mailing list
>permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>Google command to search archives:
>site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring
>
>
>

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
                        

Best regards.                            
Steve Read
steveread@free.fr
2008-10-30