permaculture

[Udan Farm <udanfarm@yahoo.com>]

Thank you all for your posts..I have read them all, and replied to many below

Peace,
Isabel


--You can't take them with you...
Yes, even though I was referring to four separate couples we have made 
aquaintance with, and two single women, all doing the "back to the land" 
thing, I have to admit, my partner and I are somewhat the same, and I guess 
it points out where we all have similarities and differences.
He has lived on farms or in the woods pretty much his whole life-nearly feral 
in the eyes of some city folks...We call his style "permaculture on the 
cheap". I on the other hand was one of those "quit my job and grow a garden" 
types, but since I was lucky enough to find my partner, we make a good pair, 
and he does enough work for 3 people. It's his idea of fun.
But what we have discovered is that really, people who live in the cities, 
while they may not be AS totally self sustaining as we are, they don't HAVE 
to be. They have a network, of friends, plumbers, carpenters, etc. Although a 
good many of the people in their networks are hired. Which takes money. 
We have come to the conclusion that everything takes money or time.
But to be honest, what we have figured out about ourselves is that we-two 
only children who never socialized much-who I think are really a product of 
the average dysfuntional nuclear homes of the 50's-70's, are in the woods 
because we function better with trees than with people. So we choose what is 
more comfortable to us, but pay a price in not having that network. It's a 
bit painful of a realization, but it's necessary to see ourselves honestly 
too.
I do think that it's a possibility in looking at what works, to have people 
who are nomadic, wandering carpenters, etc. I think there is something that 
seems "right" about some folks staying on land, and some wandering. After 
all, I am in Cherokee/Creek country, and have been told that even though the 
Cherokees lived in the high mountains, they did sometimes migrate to lower 
elevations, or even the sea-coast in winter. So having some travelling 
permies and people with skills, and an extra cabin to put them up for a while 
seems like a good idea.

--Small buildings:  We did build very small. We found a company in the 
nearest big city (2 hrs away) that would build basically a "shed" and we had 
two of them built and finished them as "green" as possible. I slept in one 
for the first time last night and there was a 22 degree difference in inside 
and outside temp. Not bad for the south. They are built up off the ground, 
with passive solar and air-flow features that make them cooler in the summer. 
 Being in the south with few code officials we have done without the legal 
indoor bathroom-that will be in the greenhouse.  We've also saved money by 
not having cumbersome "air intake systems" or a/c so it's turning out to be a 
pretty nice build.

--Food/income and shelter/water needs: I'd say we are getting there We eat a 
lot of sweet potatoes but I will always want (not need) chocolate, avacados, 
coffee/tea, oil, sugar, salt, So I try to eat a lot more tubers, less bread 
and pasta and shop carefully and as locally as possible for my "treats".  
Locally in this case means stocking up at the "closest" local co-op-two hours 
away! Income is fuzzy, and falls under that "many sources to meet one need" 
principle. Shelter and water we are good on.

--In reply to Kathyrn,  I just feel that the suburban/city folk come out to 
the land thinking they can buy their way into a bucolic-looking sustainable 
farm-just as you can buy a house designed new to your specifications.They're 
not seeking education, they're seeking someone to do it for them. 
I also think that we Americans move too much and should stay where we 
are-"Bloom  where you're planted". People don't value where they live. We 
change homes like we change clothes or spouses. It's all a matter of what 
they can afford. People in general don't move to the country to create a 
place for other people to come live. They  wait til they have the 
money/time/retirement to create a homestead, which will be sold most likely, 
not inhabited by family, when they die. If they HAVE kids, the kids usually 
have different values and don't want the farm. 
Everyone wants to take their own money, build their own dream, their own way 
and what happens to it when they die?
Asheville, NC is a perfect example of everyone wanting to live in paradise. 
It's becoming overrun with million dollar McMansions, and in 30 years it will 
be like Fla. No one wants to live there, and the houses can't be sold! The 
planet is running out of room for everyone to "do their own thing."
I think it would be far more valuable if people WOULD live in small 
communities, and to get the Permaculture Gypsy thing going on. And to be sure 
there are trusts and some sort of plans for future generations to inhabit the 
spaces. What it really comes down to I think-and I will speak for myself 
because I know not everyone is like this-is that in the last 60 years or so, 
we as a culture have lost the ability to live with each other-to cooperate, 
to live side by side, in each others spaces and business. We are programmed 
by advertising and TV to seek our own space, our own room, our own home, our 
own farm...we've lost the ability to share. It's been bred out of us by the 
culture of advertising. 
I will fight "my own self" as we say down here-til I die on that one. I am 
one of those people and I have a lot of work to do to change it. That being 
said we are working on acquiring road frontage enough to open the land up for 
some sort of eco-village situation...

--Land ownership- I think Toby's lesson about the coffee mugs says a lot. But 
I do think that as a whole society most of us do not value what we have. 
Maybe we who have land value it because we put a lot of work into it, where 
people who move a lot just see it as a "right to a decent place to live." 
..."Buy the land and then free it"...I like that SteveR.
Christopher, you make a good point about in your area people who own land are 
basically "saving it" and caring for it, but I think that here in America, 
many people do more damage trying to care for a large piece of land...they 
are too busy with other things to spend their life managing land.  
We do get a lot of people, who, after we tell them about our farm say, "well, 
but what do you DO?" (Like we must have a real job) and a lot of people think 
that because we live the way we do we are always free to "drop by" or work on 
this or that project away from home...most people don't have a clue how hard 
we work. We DO spend a huge amount of time working on caring for and 
improving this land, and that IS our real job. I think our biggest fear right 
now is what will happen to it when we are gone.

--Trudie, to answer your question about no joining a community? The one we 
seriously considered had way to many meetings, and committees, and everyone 
seemed too much in each other's business. I guess that says what it says 
about me and the culture I grew up in.

SteveR....I am 47 with bad knees. I don't have much of a desire to 
travel-I've used up my lifetime share of petrol. The number of people wanting 
designs in my area (about a 300 mile radius) would not feed me for a 
year...but any larger non-profits that have asked, I am trying to work with 
(and also getting much help from more seasoned designers.)
Right now there is a big need for education in the the US South, just getting 
the word out there so people know what it is. That's where we are starting.

---Gene said:...I find the concept of ownership an illusion.  We don't own 
the earth.  If anything, She owns us.  But the real illusion is that we are 
all separate and competing.  I really think we are in the process of evolving 
to the idea of oneness...
As permaculturalists, we feel the pain of a world gone mad, ... When our 
earth mother brings us to our knees and many of us will change form and die, 
then perhaps we will see the futility of ruthless competition, ownership and 
slavery--slavery of people, animals, plants, water, minerals, electrons, you 
name it."

Wow. Gene. Thank you for those words.


--Scott said: "Since everything that I have owned or accomplished was without 
support from family I am not nearly as attached to the concept of a "material 
legacy".   Hopefully the love I hold and the support I
provide is sufficient provenance for my children."

Scott, I want to hear more and to understand more about your "not (being) 
attached to the concept of material legacy"? Maybe not of your land directly 
to YOUR children, but what do you hope will happen to the land that you 
inhabit now (commons and owned footprint)? If you have planted nut trees, WHO 
do you hope will eat those nuts? This is precisely the point I am stuck on in 
my own life-except I don't have children...I think it boils down to "does my 
existence as a human being matter?"