permaculture

["Kevin Topek" <ktopek@houston.rr.com>]

To All,

I wholeheartedly support Lawrence London's hosting of this list. He has
single-handedly put this together and arranged hosting services. He has done
more than anyone in our community to put Permaculturists from all over
together in a forum that allows for a flow of information and ideas.
Lawrence deserves our THANKS!

Kevin Topek
Permaculture Design
Bellaire, Texas, USA

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Kramer" <MKramer@hawaii.rr.com>
To: <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 12:44 AM
Subject: [permaculture] anyone else want to host this list?


> Alrighty them, it seems we've regressed back to third grade again on this
> list, how lovely; it seems to happen every few months, just when one might
> hope otherwise. When we're trying to have a conversation and people resort
> to judgmental name-calling, it just points to how far we need to go. But
> when it comes from the host of the list, you know we're in serious
trouble.
> I vote for a new administrator of this list or, would anyone else like to
> start another international permaculture list where people with open minds
> can exchange ideas without being chastised?  This one is unsafe at any
> speed.
>
> -----
> Michael Kramer, Accredited Investment Fiduciary
> Natural Investment Services
> P.O. Box 390595
> Keauhou, HI 96739
>
> Michael@NaturalInvesting.com
> www.NaturalInvesting.com
> 808-331-0910
> Toll-free: 888-779-1500
>
> Socially Conscious Portfolio Management & Hourly Consulting
> Sustainability Strategic Planning and Education
>
> "Be the change you wish to see in the world."
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org>
> To: <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 3:28 PM
> Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] permaculture Digest, Vol 26, Issue 5
>
>
> > Send permaculture mailing list submissions to
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >
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> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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> >
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> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of permaculture digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> >    1. the dualistic split in permaculture teaching (Rain Tenaqiya)
> >    2. Re: the dualistic split in permaculture teaching
> >       (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
> >    3. RE: the dualistic split in permaculture teaching (Carrie Shepard)
> >    4. Re: the dualistic split in permaculture teaching (Sean Maley)
> >    5. Re: Succession (Robyn Francis)
> >    6. Re: Re: course format (Toby Hemenway)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:10:06 -0800 (PST)
> > From: Rain Tenaqiya <raincascadia@yahoo.com>
> > Subject: [permaculture] the dualistic split in permaculture teaching
> > To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > Message-ID: <20050304191007.28201.qmail@web40712.mail.yahoo.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> >
> > Michael Kramer is on to something very important.  It seems that the
> permaculture movement is suffering from the old matter/spirit split and it
> is hindering the movement from applying permaculture design to social
> systems.  There seems to be an assumption that humuns are somehow separate
> from the rest of Nature.  Therefore, it is possible to apply systems
> theory/ecological principles to physical, land-based or even energy-based
> designs, but not to the relationships between people or their social
> systems.  But humun systems are part of Nature and obey the same laws.
> >
> > I once saw a surprisingly useful presentation by Darren Huckle of Santa
> Cruz on permaculture principles as applied to spirituality.  If you can
> apply permaculture to spirituality, you can definitely apply it to
economic
> systems, group dynamics, political systems, and all the rest.
Permaculture
> teachers say permaculture is about design and not techniques, but students
> are not getting it.  Maybe if we had a course without reference to trees,
> water, and earth (I profess to wince at the thought), people would finally
> get it.  The essence of permaculture is about relationships, not objects.
> Many urban people have trouble apply permaculture to their lives because
> they don't have much access to trees, water, or soil.  What we need is a
> permaculture revolution.
> >
> > Let's do it!
> >
> > Rain
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
> >  Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 16:56:41 -0800
> > From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] the dualistic split in permaculture
> > teaching
> > To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Message-ID: <422903C9.9020909@intrex.net>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
> >
> > Rain Tenaqiya wrote:
> > > Michael Kramer is on to something very important.
> >
> > No he's not.
> >
> >   It seems that the permaculture movement is suffering from the old
> matter/spirit split
> >
> > No its not.
> >
> > and it is hindering the movement from applying permaculture design to
> social systems.
> >
> > Spare us more social engineering.
> >
> > There seems to be an assumption that humuns are somehow separate from
the
> rest of Nature.
> >
> > I know noone who assumes such things.
> >
> >   Therefore, it is possible to apply systems theory/ecological
principles
> to physical,
> > land-based or even energy-based designs, but not to the relationships
> between people or their social systems.
> > But humun systems are part of Nature and obey the same laws.
> > > I once saw a surprisingly useful presentation by Darren Huckle of
Santa
> Cruz on
> > permaculture principles as applied to spirituality.  If you can apply
> permaculture to spirituality,
> > you can definitely apply it to economic systems, group dynamics,
political
> systems, and all the rest.
> >   Permaculture teachers say permaculture is about design and not
> techniques, but students are not getting it.
> >
> > Maybe if we had a course without reference to trees, water, and earth (I
> profess to wince at the thought),
> > people would finally get it.
> >
> > Spare us more of Kramer's loony mind wanderings.
> >
> > The essence of permaculture is about relationships, not objects.
> >   Many urban people have trouble apply permaculture to their lives
because
> they don't have much access
> > to trees, water, or soil.  What we need is a permaculture revolution.
> >
> > You're preaching to the choir.
> >
> >
> > LL
> > --
> > L.F.London
> > lfl@intrex.net
> > http://market-farming.com
> > Market Farming Forum
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/marketfarming
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 16:20:35 -0600
> > From: "Carrie Shepard" <outlikeelijah@gbronline.com>
> > Subject: RE: [permaculture] the dualistic split in permaculture
> > teaching
> > To: "'permaculture'" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Message-ID: <1109974955_1930@GBRonline.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> >
> >
> > Ahh, I've recently been reading Michael Novak's Spirit of Democratic
> > Capitalism and Hildegard of Bingen.
> >
> > Both of these writers speak to community and our relationships to one
> > another and to nature in a positive light.  Together these books along
> with
> > the Covey writings on interdependence being the goal instead of
> independence
> > are really helping me be content with where I am in my own community
> > building efforts here.
> >
> > Recently a neighbor and her husband and I drove an hour and half from
here
> > to pick up enough used steel hoops at only $3 each for 4 families to put
> up
> > hoophouses near here.  We're all working on year round harvesting from
our
> > pieces of land and trying to make a way for our teen children to make an
> > income from home.   All of us see the importance of a holistic view of
> life
> > and are making changes to help our children focus on the more important
> > things in life instead of consumerism.
> >
> > Last winter I had checked out some books (but can't even remember them
> > because they were more like rootless ideas instead of tried and true
real
> > life this is where we are and can move to) on community minded
> permaculture.
> > >From what I remember these books seemed like stuffy college texts
lacking
> > nuts and bolts reality of real work.
> >
> > I haven't been to any formal training courses and may be off the mark
here
> > alltogether, but from what I have studied and tried to implement, it
seems
> > that these writings offer good insight.
> >
> > Carrie
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:49:28 -0800 (PST)
> > From: Sean Maley <semaley@yahoo.com>
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] the dualistic split in permaculture
> > teaching
> > To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Message-ID: <20050304224928.9758.qmail@web52809.mail.yahoo.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> >
> > Perhaps Michael is being purposely jarring.  Perhaps
> > the message is that we need to demonstrate ways to
> > stop consuming and start participating.  Why is a
> > certificate needed for everyone?  Would a rating
> > system help qualify the meaning of a piece of paper?
> > What good is paper if no results back it up?
> >
> > --------------
> > Rambling alert!!!
> > --------------
> > ------------------------------------------------
> > ROLE:  a person wanting to know more, but...
> >
> > There is an entrance fee to free the land from
> > ownership, but there is also a fee to be recognized as
> > a permaculturist.  I've always wondered why somebody
> > needs me to give them some money to help them work
> > their land.  If permaculture works so well, then why
> > is my money needed by them?  Wouldn't my work benefit
> > them and they would possibly need money from me?  Why
> > pay them twice if it supposedly works better than
> > monoculture?  Sounds like monoculture to me.  Just
> > another scam.  Besides, I won't be able to see my
> > family in Maine if I go on this course anyway.
> > ------------------------------------------------
> >
> > It may be unfair to also compare PC to economics, but
> > economics is needed prior to anyone escaping the city.
> >  The entrance fee in my neighborhood is
> > $millions/acre.  I can't even get past insurance to
> > get on a roof.  Community gardens are so small that a
> > window container works just as well if you are lucky
> > to pick the proper building.
> >
> > My PC friends live two hours away by subway; I'm in
> > Manhattan (last street on northern tip), they are in
> > Queens and Brooklyn.  We face a million dollar price
> > tag just for ample land 2 hours out of the city.  We
> > can't escape the wage slavery lock down and our
> > families may not support going away for a few weeks
> > for a course which amounts to a hobby in a city.
> >
> > Perhaps trainers need to hit the road and come to the
> > people.  Remember that the people most interested
> > won't be able to pay you for it.  I'm sure you will
> > have a place to stay and food, but don't count on them
> > going to you or even paying for it.  Anyone with the
> > spare time and money in Manhattan isn't likely to be
> > interested in a yurt vacation; have fun getting their
> > beautiful fingers dirty.
> >
> > I'm observing a need for an economic gateway paradigm;
> > many urban folks are effectively locked up in the city
> > for whatever reasons.  I think we can free them, but
> > it can't happen until we start applying PC principles
> > "beyond sustainability". I don't perceive politics as
> > important, because it is so dependent upon economics
> > at this point (2004 exit poll statistics should be
> > enough to convince you of this).
> >
> > I'm basing my strategy upon some of Henry Georges
> > writing; from land, people, and economic capital, we
> > pay rent, wages, and interest.  Rent is most
> > important, because we are stewards of the land.  Wages
> > are important because we as humans require water,
> > food, shelter, security, and social needs addressed.
> > As for interest, we don't really need it beyond the
> > energy decline, but we need it now to free the land
> > from it's bonds.
> >
> > One person holed up on their property can do little
> > for themselves, never mind produce interest.  Ten can
> > do alright for themselves, but not much interest.  One
> > Hundred could possible produce some interest, but not
> > a lot.  It's when you get serious numbers of workers,
> > who pay the land and themselves first (reproduction),
> > but also come up with extra to buy more land
> > (production).
> >
> > If all the ecovillages out there were serious about
> > saving billions of lives, they would begin to
> > accumulate land and populate it with permaculture
> > students.  Not just land in remote Idaho or the
> > Himalayas, but land making the greatest impact on the
> > global environment.  It won't be hard finding people
> > starving in the streets, because poverty is greatest
> > in these places.
> >
> > As you free these poor souls from the grid, you will
> > only be thanked, perhaps an economic boost not paying
> > as much taxes for welfare.  It's when land and wage
> > earners become ever more scarce that we run into
> > trouble.  Monoculture business can't compete, because
> > we set up like a swiss army knife to their switch
> > blade; nice for a fight, but they need a screw driver
> > in order to not be screwed.  We reuse and aren't
> > looking for the materials they need.  We design the
> > land to be reproductive; we are reproductive to the
> > land as part of it; we are careful to be choosy how we
> > pay the interest to the monoculture....
> >
> > Here we are:
> >
> >  Design Principles
> >    1. Observe and Interact
> >    2. Catch and Store Energy
> >    3. Obtain a Yield
> >    4. Apply Self Regulation and Accept Feedback
> >    5. Use and Value Renewable Resources and Services
> >    6. Produce No Waste
> >    7. Design From Patterns To Details
> >    8. Integrate Rather Than Segregate
> >    9. Use Small and Slow Solutions
> >   10. Use and Value Diversity
> >   11. Use Edges and Value The Marginal
> >   12. Creatively Use and Respond To Change
> >
> > Businesses ought to gobble it right up.  This is
> > likely the response to superior design, especially
> > considering wealth distribution in monoculture.
> >
> >
> > -Sean.
> >
> >
> > --- Rain Tenaqiya <raincascadia@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > Michael Kramer is on to something very important.
> > > It seems that the permaculture movement is suffering
> > > from the old matter/spirit split and it is hindering
> > > the movement from applying permaculture design to
> > > social systems.  There seems to be an assumption
> > > that humuns are somehow separate from the rest of
> > > Nature.  Therefore, it is possible to apply systems
> > > theory/ecological principles to physical, land-based
> > > or even energy-based designs, but not to the
> > > relationships between people or their social
> > > systems.  But humun systems are part of Nature and
> > > obey the same laws.
> > >
> > > I once saw a surprisingly useful presentation by
> > > Darren Huckle of Santa Cruz on permaculture
> > > principles as applied to spirituality.  If you can
> > > apply permaculture to spirituality, you can
> > > definitely apply it to economic systems, group
> > > dynamics, political systems, and all the rest.
> > > Permaculture teachers say permaculture is about
> > > design and not techniques, but students are not
> > > getting it.  Maybe if we had a course without
> > > reference to trees, water, and earth (I profess to
> > > wince at the thought), people would finally get it.
> > > The essence of permaculture is about relationships,
> > > not objects.  Many urban people have trouble apply
> > > permaculture to their lives because they don't have
> > > much access to trees, water, or soil.  What we need
> > > is a permaculture revolution.
> > >
> > > Let's do it!
> > >
> > > Rain
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------
> > > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
> > >  Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > permaculture mailing list
> > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > >
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
> > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
> > http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 5
> > Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 11:21:17 +1100
> > From: Robyn Francis <erda@nor.com.au>
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] Succession
> > To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Message-ID: <BE4F46AD.49F6%erda@nor.com.au>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> >
> > I've been following this discussion - (and Michael, this is a response,
> not
> > a reaction) - and consider both side have valid points.
> >
> > The PDC is The Permaculture Design Course - represents a common
> > international standard for permaculturists in all countries and
climates.
> > Anyone from any place on earth who has a Certificate of Completion for a
> PDC
> > has a common basis in terms of understanding permaculture principles and
> the
> > breadth of applications. When we call something a PDC it should be in
> > accordance with these internationally recognised ground rules.
> >
> > I've facilitated over 90 PDC's since 1985 and when I teach PDC's I
adhere
> to
> > the agreed curriculum and conduct the courses in more than the minimum
72
> > hours (the extra hours I include are for practical, excursions and
> touching
> > on areas beyond the Designer's Manual). I see the PDC having an on-going
> > role in permaculture and provided teachers keep themselves up-to-date
with
> > planetary and local trends & information, the course will never be
> 'dated'.
> > In this respect I disagree with Michael.
> >
> > However, the PDC, while it plays a vital role as an in-depth intensive
> > introduction to Pc, has it's inherent limits. There's both scope and
need
> > for other kinds of permaculture training and this is where Michael is on
> the
> > right track. I have been developing and delivering specialist courses
for
> > the past 15 years (Native plants & foods in Pc design, Design for Human
> > Settlements, Pc for Third World & Indigenous Peoples etc) Michele & Jude
> > Fanton have developed their Seed Saving programs. There are others
who've
> > developed all kinds of specialist training on various elements, aspects
> and
> > applications of pc philosophy and sustainability principles, and topics
> > inspired by pc including eco-spirituality, eco-nomics, community glue &
> > mediation. BUT none of these presents itself as a 'PDC'. (though some
> > courses may require participants to have already completed a PDC as a
> > pre-requisite)
> >
> > Here in Australia we've been discussing the pro's, con's and limitations
> of
> > the PDC for around 10 years. There's a danger of the PDC becoming an
> > educational monoculture and many of saw the need for a diversity of
> courses
> > and training to meet the diverse needs of participants and society
> > generally. One outcome of this discussion has been the recent
> accreditation
> > of permaculture training with the National Accreditation Authority of
> > Certificates 1-4 and a Diploma of Permaculture. This new training is in
> > early stages of getting off the ground, and there's much more I could
> write
> > about it but time precludes and this response is already long enough.
> >
> > In short, I think the PDC curriculum parameters & minimum delivery
> > time-frame should be honoured by all, and those of us who see additional
> > training needs should develop training to meet those needs, but give it
> > another name: Permaculture for Eco-enterprise, Permaculture Principles
and
> > Spirituality etc etc etc. It all boils down to what we call things, a
> spade
> > is a spade, and to sell a crowbar as a spade is ultimately misleading.
> >
> > Robyn Francis
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 4/3/05 5:53 PM, "Michael Kramer" <MKramer@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Since I am not surprised at all by the reaction I'm getting to
> suggestions
> > > for change, I'm going to take this conversation to another level. All
> > > natural systems evolve, and the way they do this is through
succession,
> > > waste recycling, resource accumulation, etc. These concepts can be
> pointed
> > > out without needing to spend hours on the water cycle or the functions
> of
> > > trees. Energy exchange and addressing entropy can be covered using
> countless
> > > examples in the invisible structures realm, all while basing the
> analysis on
> > > the way nature works. What's really interesting is that other
movements
> have
> > > found a way to do this while we are left in the dust, and they are
> having a
> > > serious impact. The Ecopsychology, Ecological Design, Natural
> Capitalism,
> > > and Natural Steps folks came well after us and have managed to really
> get
> > > their message out there in a great way, tackle significant projects,
and
> > > generate credibility. We have not.
> > >
> > > So the Basic Permaculture Design Course should evolve, for despite its
> good
> > > qualities, it is obsolete. It's too focused on how nature works and
not
> on
> > > applications of the principles of natural systems. The designs
students
> > > typically create are primitive and reflect only rudimentary
> understanding of
> > > the relationships between elements in a system, and this is because
most
> of
> > > the course is spent lecturing in one ear and out the other on
techniques
> in
> > > one dimension rather than on the qualities of superior relationships.
> Let me
> > > be moe clear about this. Many (could one say most?) permaculture
> > > certification course graduates DO NOT UNDERSTAND PERMACULTURE DESIGN.
> This
> > > is a direct reflection of the quality of our design courses, and it is
> > > important that the experienced teachers among us take this to heart
even
> > > though it is difficult to hear. We must place ego aside - this work
> isn't
> > > about us an individual personalities trying to hash out some sort of
> bizarre
> > > pecking order or pay homage to what Bill originated. We are failing as
a
> > > movement, in this country anyway, and it is our own (un)doing. And one
> > > reason I think this way is because I facilitate teacher trainings and
> see
> > > what the students know. It is not a measure of success if students
leave
> a
> > > design course and write nice evaluations of the course and go on their
> merry
> > > way; it's the retention and future application of what they have
learned
> > > that matters, and without such feedback, most of the permaculture
> teachers
> > > in this country have no idea what those they teach do with this
> information.
> > > Without this feedback loop, we think "it ain't broke", but people have
> > > insufficient information to draw such a conclusion and believe that as
> long
> > > as students keep signing up for design courses they must be ok. But
I'm
> > > seeing what people know and what we're doing isn't that effective. And
> > > there's nothing wrong with my saying so, folks; it's ok for me to
think
> this
> > > and to want to do something about it. And I'd like to point out that
> many
> > > students feel the same way, but they don't bring it up out of respect
> for
> > > the teachers; and so, things remain the same.
> > >
> > > We desperately need modified versions of the certification course. I
> could
> > > teach an entire certification course on the design of human
> interpersonal
> > > relationships based on the principles of permaculture and its
approaches
> to
> > > design - and I wouldn't need to teach about water, trees, or climate
to
> do
> > > so. For one doesn't need to cover these topics in such detail to get
at
> the
> > > principles of energy storage and cycling. I really would like people
to
> use
> > > their peripheral consciousness here to imagine the possibilities for
the
> > > application of our work. We are stuck in a one-dimensional approach to
> both
> > > the content and process of teaching a design philosophy that is
holistic
> in
> > > nature.  Bill could get away with talking at people for 72 hours, I
> suppose,
> > > because of his dynamism, but lets not fool that with good pedagogy.
The
> way
> > > the design course is taught needs to evolve. The people who are
teaching
> it
> > > (myself included) need to mulch ourselves and allow for the natural
> process
> > > of succession to replace the pioneer species with more collaborative
> > > students with fresh approaches to teaching. Many of our students are
> urban
> > > activists who want to take permaculture to a political and economic
> level,
> > > and believe me, our certification course doesn't address this well.
But
> > > perhaps more importantly, people who are applying the principles of
> natural
> > > systems to the design of permaculture educational experiences have
gone
> on
> > > to facilitate unbelievable educational programs far better than things
I
> or
> > > most of the pioneer teachers have done. And we should be so thankful
for
> > > this succession rather than resist based on our need for control or
> respect.
> > > And we should also recognize that there are indeed permaculture design
> > > courses out there which are not anywhere near the format or content of
> what
> > > we experienced teachers think - this is a reality, and we must be
aware
> of
> > > it.
> > >
> > > So, even though I am tired of the critiques, I am hanging on to the
> notion
> > > that there are more of us out there who want to be self-reflective and
> take
> > > permaculture to the next level. When people within our movement
> discredit
> > > efforts to broaden and deepen our collective understanding of
> permaculture,
> > > we miss an opportunity to evaluate and redesign our system, and that
is
> my
> > > higher calling, friends.
> > >
> > > Michael Kramer
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > permaculture mailing list
> > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 6
> > Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 17:28:48 -0800
> > From: Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] Re: course format
> > To: permaculture list <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Message-ID: <BE4E4B50.3C3C%toby@patternliteracy.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> >
> > I'm intrigued with Michael's idea that permaculture can be taught
without
> > covering soil, water, plants, etc. I agree that the idea behind Pc could
> be
> > conveyed in such a way--I know a lot of people practicing Pc who are not
> > gardeners, and the concepts of whole-systems design can be found in
places
> > other than the garden. But as Larry S. points out, whole systems design
is
> > modeled on and derives almost wholly from nature. The other fields that
> > Michael refers to--ecopsychology, ecological design, etc, all make
> frequent
> > references to natural systems in their teachings; they use examples of
> > trees, lakes, animals, etc. to convey their ideas (Bill McDonough's
"waste
> > equals food" for example). In contrast, most human-designed systems
> > operating today are wrenchingly dysfunctional: the stock market, law,
> > politics, religion, housing, energy use, and so on. So one would have to
> be
> > awfully choosy to draw useful principles from human systems (unless you
> > restrict your choices to indigenous, low-tech people who, revealingly,
are
> > living very close to nature), whereas one could pluck perfect examples
of
> > sustainability almost at random from nature.
> >
> > As Michael knows, I'm in agreement that 72 hours of lecture is a
dreadful
> > way to convey Pc. I learned and retained far more about Pc from the
> > experiential PDC I took from Penny Livingston and Tom Ward than from the
> > lecture PDC I took from Mollison. But I'm also a firm believer in having
a
> > shared body of knowledge common to all Pc practitioners, grounded in a
> > curriculum that covers principles, methods, water, soil, ecosystems, and
> > invisible structures. One can practice surgery without knowing organic
> > chemistry, but o-chem gives all surgeons a common language and a set of
> > working concepts to describe the phenomena they work with. I think the
> > analogy is true for permaculture. I still think the PDC curriculum is an
> > effective way to convey Pc, but it's obvious that there can be huge
> > variations in how it's presented, both in terms of what is covered and
in
> > the format of presentation. But I'm not ready to hand out a certificate
> for
> > a course that skips the garden modules. I think that with some
> > audiences--urban activists, for example-- one could spend a very short
> time
> > on the soil/water/plants segment--enough to show the origin and
universal
> > applicability of the principles--and focus mainly on invisible
structures.
> > And it can be given in a straight shot or in multiple weekend, 4-day,
> 5-day,
> > one-week, or other formats. The people who argue that it can only be
done
> in
> > the 2-week lecture format (is anyone really saying that?) are in a very
> > small minority and to focus on them is a waste of time and ignores the
> fact
> > that the format has already evolved very successfully beyond that.
> >
> > Toby
> > www.patternliteracy.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> >
> > End of permaculture Digest, Vol 26, Issue 5
> > *******************************************
> >
>
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