permaculture

[Bob Howard <rmhoward@omninet.net.au>]

Mark Ludwig wrote:

> 1I think much of the 1st world besides the USA is
> already fixed, I focus
> here cuz #1, it's my country and I'm actually in a fairly good position
> to
> shape it's future and #2 I'm quite sure there are plenty of my fellow
> citizens who need a little reordering of priorities.  Like it
> or not the
> USA has tremendous influence on how other nations will act; I'm not
> saying
> it's right or sane, I'm saying it is.
we'd all like it if you could all be a little less influential :-)

 
>In the US - where education standards and TV are appalling and mostly in the
>hands of private enterprise. Compared to public TV/Education in most other
>countries of the world. Also the degree of political repression of facts,
>dissenting opinion is much greater in the US than many other parts of the
>world
>despite your much vaunted democracy. We don't for instance regularly shoot
>protestors or unionists in this country.

this is almost total nonsense.  Most of out schools are still public,
though there are right wing wackos in the USA trying to change that.  As
for the repression of dissenting opinion, that is also almost impossible
these days with 500 channels of TV and a thriving Internet.  I am an active
unionist and know of no killing in this country in decades.  It's bad here,
no question; but not that bad.

Protestors shot by US government agency's include Kent State 1970 and the
various killings that have occurred on Native American reservations. As
for unionists I was referring to Chicago in the 1930's. Judicial executions
like those proposed for Leonard Peltier for instance. The existence and
widespread use of the death penalty and extremely long jail sentences and
heavy fines to curb protest activity also occur far more in the US than
in Australia for instance. Consider the jailing of 80 yo nuns protesting
at military bases recently.

American justice as such appears to be under extreme threat at the moment. One has to ask how the political process in America became so corrupted that it is impossible without large amounts of money to get elected. First past the post voting systems, voluntary voting, electoral computer fraud, disenfranchisement of ex prisoners etc. etc.

One can only judge things like American Education by the fruits that it produces. Most US citizens appear to have a woeful lack of understanding of the rest of the world apart from how it impacts upon them personally. The general acceptance of superiority by Americans of their country is hubris of the worst kind. Australians are either convicts or refugees, the country has always run like a sort of prison. We don't have a bill of rights, our politicians are often corrupt or more often just dumb.

So we don't go round the world proselytising 'democracy' or how great our country or our culture is. But we do let prisoners vote and it only costs about $400 to stand for Federal Parliament.

 
> > All true.  The move to pull the charters or errant corporations is a very
> > positive issue, if investors are faced with the loss of share value because
> > the companies they own commit illegal acts they will demand better
> > action.  It is sadly, all about money.
> >
>
>A view not shared by the rest of the world.

which part? pulling charters or $ making the world go round?  You're flat
wrong in either case.

$ making the world go round - the dystopia of greed and modernism. I'm
not wrong at all - most countries put much greater emphasis on the public
or ethical good than the US whether it's for state reasons (China, Singapore)
or religious reasons  (India, the Islamic world). Most people believe
in something more than money.
>  
> My point is that its really none of your business how hard people work,
> who
> they screw and how, what drugs they take or what kind of art they
> make.  the sooner governments get out of the business of regulating
> relatively harmless human conduct and focus in on stopping pissing
> in the
> water the better off we will all be.
US citizens often express such sentiments about 'big government' interfering
with their lives. It betrays a simplicity of thinking. The issue should
not be how big or small your government is but how well it is doing the
job.

Of course it matters what drugs you take. Do you not prosecute people for driving under the influence?  Do you allow bus drivers or truck drivers to be full of speed or other stimulants instead of sleep? Oh I forgot- you allow people all sorts of weapons of mass destruction hand guns, automatics etc. so what's a drunk at the wheel of a petrol tanker going to do that's so awful..

Do you not consider it a right for people to refuse to work more than 12 hours a day (for instance) - if you don't then you belong to a very strange union.

[snip]

 
>What was going on was the downgrading of reproductive economics in favour of
>productive economics. Reproductive economics is centered around woman's
>bodies.
>The labour for labour for instance.
>
>Reproductive work differs in three fundamental ways from productive work.
>It is cyclical with respect to time instead of linear.
>It is time compulsory instead of time voluntary
>It is necessarily social instead of socially necessary
>(Mary O'Brien "The Politics of Reproduction")

Dude!  I've been a dairy farmer for god's sake!  I love fertility!  Women
are swell!  They are not however incorruptible flowers of virtue any more
than men are doomed to be motor sports enthusiasts.  I find all of this to
be totally absurd posturing to fit in with people who drive me nuts. I'm
not doing it any more!  15 years was plenty.
 

I'm afraid you've missed the point. I'm not saying anything about the virtues
of women. I'm talking about the nature of reproductive labour. Reproductive
work is not exclusively done by women. It is however centered around women
because of their biological role in reproduction  (all those cows
you feed and just one bull right)

I'm not talking about virtue I'm talking about the nature of work and the way in which capitalism (and communism for that matter) discounts the importance of reproductive work.
Consequently, permaculturists spend much of their time discussing the issues of sustainability when it could be more illuminating IMHO to discuss the nature of reproductive work and how it differs from productive work as defined by capitalism.

A synthesis that treats all work as having both reproductive and productive dimensions could be a map to a coherent economic alternative. I just have to persuade a few men to stop fearing feminism..

>Reproductive work in modern societies is the work that is done by governments

>e.g. education, policing, health etc. etc.
>
>It is the reproductive goods that are most threatened by the ecological
>consequences of  Patriarchal Capitalism's juggernaut of greed.

Stupidity is gender neutral in my generation.
 

Not reading what is written and responding emotionally is not very clever
either. I'm not just talking about gender!!!
> Here you may be surprised to find I agree totally. 
> Just finished Bruce
> Sterling's "Heavy Weather", been reading plenty of apocalyptic SF
> lately.  It just that I know the American people all to well an
> know that
> while they will feel bad about people starving in where ever spuring
> them
> to action requires something more, like a better deal.  Like trains
> that so
> 350 KPH rather than cars that go 120 KPH.  That's going to work
> far better
> than guilt trips.
>  
A 'gee whiz' gimmicky education system will do that sort of thing. Why
do you think that a 'better deal' is going faster?

> >
> > Mark:
> >   Lets further be honest that this piggy society is FUN AS HELL!
>
>Having fun are we?

Damn right!  Every day is fun in the first world!  I love it!
 

I was of course referring to the people who weren't having fun...
>  
> >Mark wrote in response to Misha:
> >
> > >  You seem to suffer from angry liberal syndrome, the unfortunate
> > tendency to
> > > lash out at
> > > your less than pure allies rather than focus on the real problem,
> the
> > > system that has us all trapped looking for enough $ or time or
> platform or
> > > whatever to build a better world.  I don't stand in your way,
> I am in fact
> > > on your side.
> > >
> >
> >This is paternalistic crap.
> Like heck it is!  This is a plea to not alienate the vast majority
> of
> people who are not far left, self flagellating wet blankets. 
> I like
> winning elections, mass movements and saving the world; not just feeling
> self riotous satisfied with ones own purity.  If thats somehow
> beyond PC
> then count me out.
>  
Accusing someone of "lashing out" and then saying that "I am in fact on
your side" is paternalism in my book. You're putting her down and assuming
an air of moral superiority. Fulminating about "far left, self flagellating
wet blankets" belongs in a letter to the editor of the National Enquirer
not in a permaculture discussion group. You don't know anything about her
or me to make such insulting generalizations.

 
>There are no technical solutions only ethical ones.
>
>Bob Howard

Hogwash.  Like these are somehow separate!

I didn't imply that they were.
 

> Most of us live in a technical society, and I'll
> guarantee right now no matter how bad it gets there will be technology
> to make it comfortable and pleasant for those who can pay for
> it.  Pursuing a benign technical future is no shameful venture,
> and in fact
> has a far greater chance of succeeding in saving the world than all
> the
> brow beating and guilt you or anyone else can generate.
I'm not interested in brow beating or guilt any more than you are. But
it does seem like the pot calling the kettle black here.
 
 
> Go back and read
> what I wrote the first time and look at how much I agree with MGS;
> especially the C tax (which is the key to getting people making more
> rational decisions).   I don't expect people to love all
> my opinions, but
> for goddess sake MAKE COMMON GROUND on the aspects that are essential
> and
> agreeable.

Good perhaps you too can read what is being written rather than responding to your prejudices.

Have a good day

Bob Howard

>