permaculture

[Mark <mpludwig@facstaff.wisc.edu>]

At 02:23 PM 10/23/02 -0700, you wrote:
> Mark wrote:
>
> > Deep breath Larry.  I have looked into this fairy deeply and simply
>
> I think you missed something, Mark. Look deeper.
>
> > don't worry about it any more.  Given all the leaky hydraulic systems and 
> > drippy engines I see on organic farms I would guess I'm doing less damage 
> > to the soil than those folks.
>
> That's the one right there:
>
> > I have yet to see anyone provide
> > any real evidence that glphophate is all that bad,
>
> Pure glyphosate, I have heard, may not be persistent in the environment
> and only harmful to plants over the short term; correct me if I'm wrong.
> Its what's in Roundup that's so harmful, polyacrylamide, surfactant, 
> spreader sticker and no telling what else, that is so persistent and 
> damaging to life in the soil. Regular use around trees can kill them over time.
>
> But I am probably preaching to the choir, you knew all this already, right?

I know the surfactant is a problem, but I really think if the stuff were 
that bad we would see much more damage.  Look, I don't advocate bathing the 
landscape in the stuff and if I find something that works as well I'll use 
it.  I plan to try acetic acid (vinegar) next spring and if it works, 
great.  I have no love for Monsanto, though frankly I dislike the petrol 
companies a whole lot more.

> > and frankly get damn sick of the purist extremists off all stripes, 
> > green, red, GOP,
>
> I am one of the most extreme purist extremists you will ever find in your 
> lifetime and I won't be backing off my position ever. And there are 
> millions more just like me.

And about 250 million who either don't care or disagree with 
you.  Extremism in all its forms limits the mind IMO, and sure as hell it 
makes some folks down right dangerous (9-11 come to mind).

> Take some time off and register for a PDC course somewhere. You
> would find it enlightening and probably attitude changing.

we went around on this already, I'm not really interested in going again, 
I'll do this much though and list a few of the things I've done in my life, 
then you tell me what I get from a PDC.

Grew up helping my professional ecologist father survey birds on the great 
lakes, gather data for environmental impact studies, reclaimed many 
landscapes including mines, flyash dumps and gravel pits.

BS Michigan State - environmental issues

2 years with a prairie restoration firm as a technician.

3 seasons working on Gary Zimmers organic and biological farms, including a 
trip to acres USA where I saw Elaine Ingram speak.

Numerous trips to the Upper midwest organic farming conference, including 2 
as a PC presenter (the horror!)

1 year course in grass based dairy, UW Madison short course

5 seasons of rotational grazing, including one as the only worker full time 
keeping a dairy farm going.

Lent my help to Mark Shepard and Martin Jelenc on their PC projects, still 
in contact with both of them, probably 80 hours at Martins this year.

did a PC internship at Dreamtime village one summer.

Hung out with plenty of  greenish paganesqe types, sat in tiny hot huts, 
looked lovingly at the sky....

And I'd like to think I demonstrate pretty sound understanding of PC and 
related topics on this list regularly.

So just what am I going to get at a PC course but bored?

I plan to help Frank with his design course if it happens or with our local 
PC network if we do one, but I'm sure as hell not paying two grand for a 
basic course any time soon.  Sorry, I have much better uses for that kind 
of cash right now.
M
> --
> L.F.London
> lfl@intrex.net
> http://market-farming.com
> http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/pcwiki/index.php/london
>
>
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Mark P. Ludwig
Poultry Research Lab
University of Wisconsin -Madison
608-262-1730 WK
608-846-7125 HM