permaculture

[Rick Valley <bamboogrove@cmug.com>]

Frank:you've been getting some really good advice.
Here's some more comments.
-Rick

> From: Mark 
> Seriously, one of the great
> tenets of PC is exploiting the natural work animals do.

>> A dump truck, which I don't have or have access to, would be useful. So too
>> might a plow blade on the tractor...if I had one.

The most versatile implement you can get (not the cheapest) for earthwork
for your tractor would be an HYRAULICALLY ASSISTED box scraper. That will
let you build roads and ponds, among other things.

>> <<  However, I would stay at your stocking rate and
>> start pushing into the hills. >>
>> Yup...that is my plan. The cattle have already opened up some areas that I
>> have allowed them access to. My biggest concern is then containing,
>> controlling, and protecting them. Sometimes boundary fences are destroyed 
>> by
>> sudden tree falls etc. in areas difficult to reach.  And cattle will find
>> there way through such gaps. At least one cow, and two calves have
>> disappeared in these areas( coyotes?) that are filled with multiflora 
>> roses,
>> downed trees, drainage( erosion) channels etc. Soil seems fairly rich in
>> these areas do to leaf litter,rotting materials, little use in years.
>> 
>> <<Length of rest is more important than where in the 1/2 - 3 day window you
>> get off, as long as it's not wet. >>
>> 
>> Yes, I realize this too...and am working towards this goal. I've only been
>> down here for 2+ years so I have a lot to do. Wet fields are a major 
>> concern
>> for me due to the heavy run off from the surrounding high hills. Cattle can
>> really turn into a muddy mess in a hurry. I have some fields away from the
>> bottoms that are laced with rocks, heavy clays that hold up better...but 
>> may
>> not be able to feed herd for any length of time. I'm afraid that this will 
>> be
>> 
>> an ongoing problem due to the lay of the land.
Designing the traffic patterns of the cattle so that they are creating roads
that will spread the water out ("diversion swales", call 'em) while
transporting nutients up and trampling woody matter into the soil, you can
soon have belts of trees paralell to these paths that can contibute to the
feeding of the cattle.

>> <<Put as few obstacles as possible in the way of the flood, limit fence
>> posts, trees shrubs etc within the areas currently accumulating crap.>>

Or plan, purposefully, barriers to accumulate the crap where you can use it
or leave it to shape the flood flow.

>> In theory I'm with you. But I need to contain the cattle, and don't want 
>> them
>> 
>> in this pristine creek. It's a state designated trout stream. In fact 
>> waters
>> are so pure etc. state release trout into it not far from my farm each 
>> year.
>> 
>> <<I would knock out all but the most precious trees in these areas.  You 
>> will
>> 
>> find that the cattle can reshape the channel, mashing it down to archive a
>> better shape.  Ideally you will end you with the deep main channel and a
>> secondary grassy channel. something like this...>>
>> 
>> Hmmm....Not sure about taking out many of the trees in this strip that
>> buffers the creek. I also feel that they help anchor; stabilize the area
>> alongside the creek, whose banks are often eroded( more on the eastern side
>> toward my pasture:( The last flood lopped off about 15' of a bank in an 
>> area
>> that was 10' from the creek bottom.
>> 
>> It also provides a good windbreak for the bottom fields. I was actually
>> thinking of a thinning out less desireable trees; releasing some of better
>> species, and adding desireable native plants, and shrubs that don't cut you
>> to pieces:)
Sounds like you need a brush hook, a tool sadly lacking in N. America.
 
>> Not sure how to handle the channels that lace the area...creating up and 
>> down
>> 
>> sometimes steep areas in a relatively narrow strip of land.

Here's where language is cumbersome and visuals would help me tremendously.
You mean seasonal gullys heading down to the stream or flood plain channels
that the stream uses at high water times?

>> Also trees along the eastern edge of the creek in particular tend to just
>> fall into the creek, as banks erode, and roots become exposed. Sometimes 
>> huge
>> 
>> trees fall that way creating deeper pools etc.
deep pools, good. Single strip of trees falling away (both because of
undercutting and compaction of adjacent pasture) and leaving un-treed land
open to flood erosion, bad. Need more small trees, bamboo, coppice clumps,
etc.

>> Regarding wet, clay/gravel based interior pasture areas at base of hills 
>> Mark
>> 
>> writes:)
>> 
>> <<If it drys out enough you may be able to use a deep riper of some
>> kind to fracture the lower soil profile without messing up the sod, though
>> there may be so many old stumps, logs etc that this is not advisable>>
>> 
>> You know I've heard that deep ripping is helpful....but I really don't
>> understandhow such can be done practically over several acres. By the way I
>> just trenched a 6" wide 30+ inch trench for a waterline through some of 
>> this
>> land but am not sure how much benefit I will get. I also did similar 
>> trenches
>> 
>> for almost 4000' length wise in the middle of my bottoms.

The trick is to maximize the benefit of the ripping. Keyline plowing is not
the same- you go no deeper than just below the grass roots. I think if you
want to go deep in one pass, then put woody material back in before
covering- the Fukuoka/Mazibuko trench system or traditional British "brush
drain" technique.

>> By the way some of the "sacrifice" areas I use for feeding/handling are on
>> elevated ground, or sometimes just where needed(barn). Cattle turn even 
>> these
>> 
>> areas over time into muddy mess...but I have been surprised how quickly 
>> grass

Another thing you could do with muddy, high traffic areas is put the flood
wrack there; cattle will trample and shred woody debris quite well.

>> etc. grew. In these areas pig weed- spiny amaranth?- now seem to be the 
>> most
>> common weed taking over a good sized area.
>> 
>> Is pig weed an indicator for drier, harder soils?
cycles loose nitrates into bio-mass, quick. A good compost stock if you get
it before it seeds. Or food for some birds or, of course, pigs.

>> have always had a brownish color from mud...made worse by cattle loafing,
>> excreting in them... Unfortunately I haven't really planted the banks which
could use 
>> some sort of cover. Fescue is growing in spots, but even fescue needs 
>> better
>> soil:) 
 
>> tolerate cattle walking through such plantings? I'd like to keep most of
>> larger shade trees in this area. Tend to be sycamores, a few oaks,
>> elderberry, and water maples. Quite a few willows too...but they seem to 
>> die
>> young.
>> 
>> Thanks gain for taking the time to elucidate. Sometimes I have the right
>> ideas...but need reinforcement, and encouragement. Proof that it does work
>> down on the farm:)



Mark replying to John , re: the diff 'tween put 'em in the pasture & forget
'em VS intensive rotational grazing:
> This is still how a lot of beef is raised, but this system relys on feed
> lots to make tender beef.  Better management will allow faster growth on
> grass/clover pasture alone for good beef quality.

Liz at Linnea on Cortez Is. BC converted such a laid-back style to a sort of
intensive grazing. Her triumph came when the former owner (living across the
road) tasted some of the new beef: "Come on, tell the truth, you fed 'em
grain, right?" Nope, no grain. And there's a smaller area of pasture, the
stream is protected, and the cattle have a good multi-age herd structure &
the company of a flock of turkeys at times.