permaculture

[Mark <mpludwig@facstaff.wisc.edu>]

At 07:56 AM 8/8/02 -0400, you wrote:
> Good day:)
>
> Mark...let me thank you for taking the time to write such a lengthy response:)
> In a message dated 8/6/02 6:19:34 PM, mpludwig@facstaff.wisc.edu writes:
>
> <<  However, I would stay at your stocking rate and
> start pushing into the hills. >>
> Yup...that is my plan. The cattle have already opened up some areas that I
> have allowed them access to. My biggest concern is then containing,
> controlling, and protecting them. Sometimes boundary fences are destroyed by
> sudden tree falls etc. in areas difficult to reach.

Smooth wire will help that, usually you just cut the tree and the wire 
springs back up.

>  And cattle will find
> there way through such gaps. At least one cow, and two calves have
> disappeared in these areas( coyotes?) that are filled with multiflora roses,
> downed trees, drainage( erosion) channels etc. Soil seems fairly rich in
> these areas do to leaf litter,rotting materials, little use in years.

PRetty rare for cyotes to take adult cattle.  Cows with big as horns make 
real short work of cyotes.  More likely you will find she got stuck 
somewhere and dropped dead.

> <<Length of rest is more important than where in the 1/2 - 3 day window you
> get off, as long as it's not wet. >>
>
> Yes, I realize this too...and am working towards this goal. I've only been
> down here for 2+ years so I have a lot to do. Wet fields are a major concern
> for me due to the heavy run off from the surrounding high hills. Cattle can
> really turn into a muddy mess in a hurry. I have some fields away from the
> bottoms that are laced with rocks, heavy clays that hold up better...but may
> not be able to feed herd for any length of time. I'm afraid that this will be
> an ongoing problem due to the lay of the land.
>
> <<Good selective cutting can get much more valuable wood
> growing and maintain understory better.  Best done on frozen ground,
> farmers call it winter work.>>
>
> Ah...that's exactly what I plan to do in forested areas over a long period of
> time:)
>
> <<Put as few obstacles as possible in the way of the flood, limit fence
> posts, trees shrubs etc within the areas currently accumulating crap.>>
>
> In theory I'm with you. But I need to contain the cattle, and don't want them
> in this pristine creek. It's a state designated trout stream. In fact waters
> are so pure etc. state release trout into it not far from my farm each year.

Length of time applies to stream banks too.  Grazing them right will build 
up a stronger sod than what you get under trees.  I know this is heresy, 
but it's getting to be well documented.  Many of the trout biologists are 
push MIG here.

> <<I would knock out all but the most precious trees in these areas.  You will
> find that the cattle can reshape the channel, mashing it down to archive a
> better shape.  Ideally you will end you with the deep main channel and a
> secondary grassy channel. something like this...>>
>
> Hmmm....Not sure about taking out many of the trees in this strip that
> buffers the creek. I also feel that they help anchor; stabilize the area
> alongside the creek, whose banks are often eroded( more on the eastern side
> toward my pasture:( The last flood lopped off about 15' of a bank in an area
> that was 10' from the creek bottom.

it's just the opposite, especially in a closed canopy situation.

> It also provides a good windbreak for the bottom fields. I was actually
> thinking of a thinning out less desireable trees; releasing some of better
> species, and adding desireable native plants, and shrubs that don't cut you
> to pieces:)

You don't need windbreaks everywhere, 1/3 of paddocks with these is more 
than enough.

> Not sure how to handle the channels that lace the area...creating up and down
> sometimes steep areas in a relatively narrow strip of land.
>
> Also trees along the eastern edge of the creek in particular tend to just
> fall into the creek, as banks erode, and roots become exposed. Sometimes huge
> trees fall that way creating deeper pools etc.

Grass.

> Regarding wet, clay/gravel based interior pasture areas at base of hills Mark
> writes:)
>
> <<If it drys out enough you may be able to use a deep riper of some
> kind to fracture the lower soil profile without messing up the sod, though
> there may be so many old stumps, logs etc that this is not advisable>>
>
> You know I've heard that deep ripping is helpful....but I really don't
> understandhow such can be done practically over several acres. By the way I
> just trenched a 6" wide 30+ inch trench for a waterline through some of this
> land but am not sure how much benefit I will get. I also did similar trenches
> for almost 4000' length wise in the middle of my bottoms.

Tractor good.

> <<In fact one of your best ways to build up you low lands is to use good
> grass cover
> and swales to catch soil in these floods.>> Yes...there are already numerous
> swales in the interior pasture, and indeed they do catch the water. However
> the soil here is poorly drained; often very hard. In fact pasture above
> swales drains well that footing is decent to good even after heavy rains.
> They also dry much faster. So that land is best choice I have to put cattle
> on where would cause excessive damage to bottoms.
>
> By the way some of the "sacrifice" areas I use for feeding/handling are on
> elevated ground, or sometimes just where needed(barn). Cattle turn even these
> areas over time into muddy mess...but I have been surprised how quickly grass
> etc. grew. In these areas pig weed- spiny amaranth?- now seem to be the most
> common weed taking over a good sized area.
>
> Is pig weed an indicator for drier, harder soils?

A good indicator of high fertility.

> Re: Ponds
>
> I'd like to stock some fish too:) But ponds are mostly surface water fed, and
> have always had a brownish color from mud...made worse by cattle loafing,
> excreting in them.
> I had geese that didn't seem to mind...but coyotes got them all when pond
> froze over.
> Eight Canadian geese settled in for a test for a day or two but then took
> off. A large blue heron visits often when cattle; Australian shepherds are
> not around. Unfortunately I haven't really planted the banks which could use
> some sort of cover. Fescue is growing in spots, but even fescue needs better
> soil:)
>
> Re: Boggy area grasses
>
> Will Blue Stem or Indian grasses tolerate almost constant wet feet?

no.

> Will they
> tolerate cattle walking through such plantings?

not well.

>  I'd like to keep most of
> larger shade trees in this area. Tend to be sycamores, a few oaks,
> elderberry, and water maples. Quite a few willows too...but they seem to die
> young.
>
> Thanks gain for taking the time to elucidate. Sometimes I have the right
> ideas...but need reinforcement, and encouragement. Proof that it does work
> down on the farm:)
>
> All the best.  Frank
>
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Mark P. Ludwig
Poultry Research Lab
University of Wisconsin -Madison
608-262-1730 WK
608-846-7125 HM