permaculture

[FranksFarm@aol.com]

Good day:)

Mark...let me thank you for taking the time to write such a lengthy response:)
In a message dated 8/6/02 6:19:34 PM, mpludwig@facstaff.wisc.edu writes:

<<  However, I would stay at your stocking rate and 
start pushing into the hills. >> 
Yup...that is my plan. The cattle have already opened up some areas that I 
have allowed them access to. My biggest concern is then containing, 
controlling, and protecting them. Sometimes boundary fences are destroyed by 
sudden tree falls etc. in areas difficult to reach.  And cattle will find 
there way through such gaps. At least one cow, and two calves have 
disappeared in these areas( coyotes?) that are filled with multiflora roses, 
downed trees, drainage( erosion) channels etc. Soil seems fairly rich in 
these areas do to leaf litter,rotting materials, little use in years.

<<Length of rest is more important than where in the 1/2 - 3 day window you 
get off, as long as it's not wet. >>

Yes, I realize this too...and am working towards this goal. I've only been 
down here for 2+ years so I have a lot to do. Wet fields are a major concern 
for me due to the heavy run off from the surrounding high hills. Cattle can 
really turn into a muddy mess in a hurry. I have some fields away from the 
bottoms that are laced with rocks, heavy clays that hold up better...but may 
not be able to feed herd for any length of time. I'm afraid that this will be 
an ongoing problem due to the lay of the land.

<<Good selective cutting can get much more valuable wood 
growing and maintain understory better.  Best done on frozen ground, 
farmers call it winter work.>>

Ah...that's exactly what I plan to do in forested areas over a long period of 
time:)

<<Put as few obstacles as possible in the way of the flood, limit fence 
posts, trees shrubs etc within the areas currently accumulating crap.>>

In theory I'm with you. But I need to contain the cattle, and don't want them 
in this pristine creek. It's a state designated trout stream. In fact waters 
are so pure etc. state release trout into it not far from my farm each year.

<<I would knock out all but the most precious trees in these areas.  You will 
find that the cattle can reshape the channel, mashing it down to archive a 
better shape.  Ideally you will end you with the deep main channel and a 
secondary grassy channel. something like this...>>

Hmmm....Not sure about taking out many of the trees in this strip that 
buffers the creek. I also feel that they help anchor; stabilize the area 
alongside the creek, whose banks are often eroded( more on the eastern side 
toward my pasture:( The last flood lopped off about 15' of a bank in an area 
that was 10' from the creek bottom.

It also provides a good windbreak for the bottom fields. I was actually 
thinking of a thinning out less desireable trees; releasing some of better 
species, and adding desireable native plants, and shrubs that don't cut you 
to pieces:)

Not sure how to handle the channels that lace the area...creating up and down 
sometimes steep areas in a relatively narrow strip of land.

Also trees along the eastern edge of the creek in particular tend to just 
fall into the creek, as banks erode, and roots become exposed. Sometimes huge 
trees fall that way creating deeper pools etc. 

Regarding wet, clay/gravel based interior pasture areas at base of hills Mark 
writes:)

<<If it drys out enough you may be able to use a deep riper of some 
kind to fracture the lower soil profile without messing up the sod, though 
there may be so many old stumps, logs etc that this is not advisable>>

You know I've heard that deep ripping is helpful....but I really don't 
understandhow such can be done practically over several acres. By the way I 
just trenched a 6" wide 30+ inch trench for a waterline through some of this 
land but am not sure how much benefit I will get. I also did similar trenches 
for almost 4000' length wise in the middle of my bottoms.

<<In fact one of your best ways to build up you low lands is to use good 
grass cover 
and swales to catch soil in these floods.>> Yes...there are already numerous 
swales in the interior pasture, and indeed they do catch the water. However 
the soil here is poorly drained; often very hard. In fact pasture above 
swales drains well that footing is decent to good even after heavy rains. 
They also dry much faster. So that land is best choice I have to put cattle 
on where would cause excessive damage to bottoms.

By the way some of the "sacrifice" areas I use for feeding/handling are on 
elevated ground, or sometimes just where needed(barn). Cattle turn even these 
areas over time into muddy mess...but I have been surprised how quickly grass 
etc. grew. In these areas pig weed- spiny amaranth?- now seem to be the most 
common weed taking over a good sized area.

Is pig weed an indicator for drier, harder soils?

Re: Ponds

I'd like to stock some fish too:) But ponds are mostly surface water fed, and 
have always had a brownish color from mud...made worse by cattle loafing, 
excreting in them. 
I had geese that didn't seem to mind...but coyotes got them all when pond 
froze over.
Eight Canadian geese settled in for a test for a day or two but then took 
off. A large blue heron visits often when cattle; Australian shepherds are 
not around. Unfortunately I haven't really planted the banks which could use 
some sort of cover. Fescue is growing in spots, but even fescue needs better 
soil:) 

Re: Boggy area grasses

Will Blue Stem or Indian grasses tolerate almost constant wet feet? Will they 
tolerate cattle walking through such plantings? I'd like to keep most of 
larger shade trees in this area. Tend to be sycamores, a few oaks, 
elderberry, and water maples. Quite a few willows too...but they seem to die 
young.

Thanks gain for taking the time to elucidate. Sometimes I have the right 
ideas...but need reinforcement, and encouragement. Proof that it does work 
down on the farm:)

All the best.  Frank