pcplantdb

[Chad Knepp <pyg@galatea.org>]

Hi Lawrence,

Thanks for being more specific about your concerns.  It's much easier
for me to understand where you are coming from now.

Lawrence F. London, Jr. writes:
 > Chad Knepp wrote:
 > 
 > > Zope cons:
 > > 
 > >   o Not supported currently by our prefered ISP (ibiblio).  If we
 > >     choose to not go with ibiblio we would loose support from
 > >     Lawrence. 
 > 
 > The main reason I would opt to make my contributions elsewhere
 > (with regrets) if HG isn't done on ibiblio is:
 > 1) Cost, time and trouble if not on ibiblio

This is also my biggest concern, not so much while we have some
funding, but after we are *done* and move on to other things.  What's
going to happen then.  The kind of server facilities we would need
would probably cost $500/year which is doable while we have funding.
When/if funding runs out we are going to have serious problems if we
don't have some sort of 'sugar daddy' ISP.

This raises another point.  When this project is over what will happen
in regards to continued maintenance of the site regardless of where it
is at?  If we have developed a substantial user-base this could be a
non-trivial amount of work.  I do think it is possible for it to come
from voluntary sources and think I would probably continue development
on a small scale *for fun* anyway.  My question here is, has anyone
really thought several years down the road about this?  Maintaining
continuity is a very important thing on the Internet.  If
permaculture.info is going to really be something, we need to think
long term.

My solution is this:  We fund raise in collaboration with ibiblio to
get a Zope server for the project.  By this I mean we either co-write
the grant with them or at least include them extensively in the
process.  They have a far reaching reputation and will probably lend
credence to our own efforts, increasing our chance of success... one
of those win-win things.

 > 2) Its a blind alley as I see it; I can't invest a lot of trust in
 > where the project might go/end up if we don't host on ibiblio - I
 > fear intrusion into HG by some used car salesman who might get
 > enough control to haul it off to parts unknown to do with it what
 > he/they will.  For my money it is safe and sound on ibiblio and
 > with NP support from the Permaculture Institute, for the long
 > haul. This frees us to work on platform and data acquisition -
 > which is what we are the most interested in anyway.

I hear that you are concerned that our work could be misappropriated
by others, but being at ibiblio does not really ensure that this won't
happen.  We are creating an open source product and people can
essentially take our product at any time and recreate the exact same
thing on their own website.  There are a number of things they can't
do with it though like charge money for it or sell it.  They also have
to attribute authorship to us and any changes they make have to be
released to the public in the exact same way.  Yes people can take our
project and make it better than what we did.  If they do and people
like it better, it is a GOOD thing.  This kind of thing isn't really
something you can be safe from anywhere.

The other thing I hear in your concern is that some entity will be
able to seize control of the direction of the project in an
inappropriate way.  This is/was also a concern of mine and is why I
didn't want for an individual in the group to own the domain name.
Once the project becomes established the person/group in control of
the domain essentially controls the project.  Although we are all
great folks we also have fairly different opinions on a number of
things.  If we came to a decision that we didn't seem to be able to
resolve, the owner of the name would have the option to fork the
project and continue development by themselves.  Having this power
would probably unbalance the decision making process even for easy
decisions.  Anyway, like I said after establishment the folks at
Permaculture Institute are really the only ones with this sort of
power and we are pretty sure this isn't what they are about.

 > I'd like to think that I would have significant contributions to
 > make to HG over time; that means text data, photos, videos and
 > sound files; all original stuff from me. I'd much rather be part of
 > a permaculture _database_ project than just create a permaculture
 > wiki and website.

This is one of the reasons why it's so important for you to remain a
part of the HG project.  You MUST be part of HG!

 > I hope you all can find a way to work on ibiblio.

Totally.  Would you consider going the Zope route if I say by the end
of the year we will either be hosted at ibiblio, we will know the date
by which we will be hosted on ibiblio, or we will have found a long
term hosting solution that even you agree is as good or better than
ibiblio (this one's not likely I admit)?  If by the end of the year we
haven't satisfied these conditions you would have every right to
curse, throw things, and walk out, etc.

-- 
Chad Knepp
python -c 'import base64;print base64.decodestring("cHlnQGdhbGF0ZWEub3Jn")'