Healthy soil and sustainable growing

["John D'hondt" <dhondt@eircom.net>]

Paul, we are basically in complete agreement about all this. Sea water 
levels should rise with global warming. I bought my property 25 years ago 
with an eye to that effect :) (the lowest part of our land is at around 400 
feet elevation). But ice is melting everywhere and I can't see any 
difference in sea level yet. Up to a hundred years ago "The Anker" in Bantry 
was around the high high water line. It is still above water today.

One thing to be careful with is stating that we should not throw out 
science. I agree with that but realise full well that many scientists are 
now involved in intellectual prostitution. At least the ones that want to 
keep their jobs. I agree that industrial agriculture can not feed the world 
right now but ask an ag scientist and he or she will 9 times out of ten tell 
you this is because there is not enough gmo yet.
john
> As a reminder the underlying issue in this is the future of agriculture 
> and coping with possible changes in whatever affects it. It's true there's 
> a lot we don't know. But I don't take that as a signal to throw out 
> science and deny what we do know. One thing we already know is that 
> industrial agriculture cannot feed the world right now.
>
> paul tradingpost@lobo.net
>
> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>
> On 6/11/2011 at 9:44 PM Tradingpost wrote:
>
> > http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html#q9
> > states:
> >   "Global mean sea level has been rising at an average rate of 1.7
> > mm/year (plus or minus 0.5mm) over the past 100 years, which is
> > significantly larger than the rate averaged over the last several thousand
> > years."
> >
> > Not speculative. And I seriously doubt Al Gore is dictating policy to
> > National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, National Climatic Data
> > Center. Same goes for all the other links. I welcome differences of views
> > but please research the subject and weigh the credibility of sources and
> > who's paying them to say what. I do not support the "look out the window
> > and see if the sea level is rising" approach to the science.
> >
> > And the U.S. Geological Survey at
> > http://www.nwrc.usgs.gov/factshts/fs91_97.pdf
> >   "The rate of global sealevel rise is expected to accelerate during the
> > next century as atmospheric temperatures continue to increase."
> >
> > What's important in this IMHO is to use and study and challenge the
> > science instead of just dissing it with ideological blinders. I mean, we
> > still see some who demand we accept the sun goes around the earth because
> > the Bible says so.
> >
> > paul tradingpost@lobo.net
> >
> >
> > *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
> >
> > On 6/10/2011 at 11:26 AM paul@oneseedling.com wrote:
> >
> > > The National Geographic link is mostly speculating what would happen
> > > "if". There has been no rise of ocean 4-8in in the US.
> > >
> > > The second link is also speculating on effects of rising levels on
> > > marshland in Louisana. The graph actually shows the swamp rose instead of
> > > fell.
> > >
> > > The third link is also speculating on what "if" however it is more fact
> > > based showing a very slight rise in sea levels. However archeological
> > > evidence at least in the Mediterranean shows a fall in sea levels at
> > > around 50 ft from Greek Classical era.
> > >
> > > The fourth link is also speculative heavy on the what if with some nice
> > > temperature charts thrown in. Gotta remember we have only been recording
> > > accurate temperatures for around 200 years.
> > >
> > > Sorry, the last two links didn't work on my computer.
> > >
> > > So I still say that as far as I can see the ocean rise thing is mostly
> > > speculative. I looked at so old pictures of Florence and compared them to
> > > modern pictures and it was a mixed bad, some higher some lower which 
> > > leads
> > > me to believe that those are foundation problems.
> > > Indications are that places like Bangladesh are sinking but that is due 
> > > to
> > > subduction of their subcontinent. Some islands in the Indian Ocean and in
> > > the Pacific have lost coastline but this appears to be related to natural
> > > sinking of volcanic islands
> > >
> > > Climate change is good business, just as Al Gore.
> > >
> > > Paul the Skeptic
> > >
> > > On Jun 9, 2011, at 10:46 PM, "Tradingpost" <tradingpost@lobo.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > > They can always pay some "expert" who isn't even a climate scientist to
> > > lie like no tomorrow, and the moneybags come from the likes of 
> > > Exxon-Mobil
> > > and other big polluters who stand to lose money if climate science is
> > > taken seriously. But these are credible websites:
> > > >
> > http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/04/0420_040420_earthday.html
> > > > http://www.nwrc.usgs.gov/factshts/fs91_97.pdf
> > > > http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html#q9
> > > > http://www.nature.nps.gov/geology/coastal/gw_slr.cfm
> > > http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/235402/global-warming/274850/Ice-melt-and-sea-level-rise
> > > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15774757
> > > >
> > > > paul tradingpost@lobo.net
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
> > > >
> > > > On 6/9/2011 at 8:35 PM paul@oneseedling.com wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I guess the only question is where is the sea rising. No evidence on
> > > > > either coast of the US. Area around New Orleans is sinking but area
> > > around
> > > > > Corpus Christi the same.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Paul the Skeptic
> > > > >
> > > > > On Jun 9, 2011, at 4:53 PM, "Tradingpost" <tradingpost@lobo.net> 
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Qui bono. I'd question the source of any such "documentaries".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > paul tradingpost@lobo.net
> > > > > >
> > > > > > *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 6/9/2011 at 9:26 PM John D'hondt wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > That is one of the things that worry me Paul. There should be a
> > > > > > > measurable
> > > > > > > and fast rise in sea level but I have seen whole documentaries
> > > > > > > explaining/proving that exactly the opposite is happening. I wish I
> > > > > were
> > > > > > > certain myself but confusion rules.
> > > > > > > john
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > OK with me, I'm just judging from the amount of sea ice melting.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On 6/8/2011 at 10:14 PM John D'hondt wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Just replying to the last paragraph Paul. There is a hell of a lot
> > > of
> > > > > > > > > confusion at the moment. It is not easy to see whether sea levels
> > > > > rise or
> > > > > > > > > fall when the tidal differences are huge in comparison. I have 
> > > > > > > > > seen
> > > > > > > > > scientific articles going in either direction and the last one 
> > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > only
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > few weeks ago measured sea levels with gps and satellites and 
> > > > > > > > > found
> > > a
> > > > > > > > > drop.
> > > > > > > > > Time will tell if we are still around.
> > > > > > > > > john
> > > > > > > > > > to the question "why panic if we should move towards the same
> > > levels
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > green
> > > > > > > > > > house gas as in the Carboniferous?"
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > it would destroy civilization and most species adapted to modern
> > > > > > > climate
> > > > > > > > > > including humans of course
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > sea water is rising slowly, and if the sun was hotter some
> > > scientists
> > > > > > > > > > somewhere would be telling us and others would be verifying it
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > paul tradingpost@lobo.net
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On 6/7/2011 at 7:42 PM John D'hondt wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > The models are based on human emissions alone, and do not
> > > include
> > > > > > > > > > > > > heat-amplifying feedbacks from melting ice or changes in
> > carbon
> > > > > > > > > > > > > sinks.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > When those are factored in, it moves the timetable forward so
> > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > "reaching four degrees by 2060 is a plausible, worst-case
> > > > > scenario"
> > > > > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the median being 2070. By 2100, 5.5 degrees is possible, he
> > > said.
> > > > > > > > > > > > If it only includes human emissions and doesn't consider 
> > > > > > > > > > > > melting
> > > > > > > > > > > > hydrates, permafrost decay, or feedbacks, then it isn't even
> > > close
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > the worst case scenario.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Everyone is so afraid to speak the whole truth on this topic
> > > > > because
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > whole truth is worse than the "alarmists".
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Dan C.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I could not agree more Dan. Imo most people, even scientists,
> > > might
> > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > able to take the whole truth. Our species is very good at
> > > extremely
> > > > > > > over
> > > > > > > > > > > simplified dichotomies. Most are by now convinced climate change
> > > is
> > > > > > > > > taking
> > > > > > > > > > > place. Ice is melting everywhere. But is that our fault? Or is
> > the
> > > > > sun
> > > > > > > > > > > indeed putting out more enery?
> > > > > > > > > > > Worst case scenario is if both are right at the same time. There
> > > > > were
> > > > > > > > > > > times
> > > > > > > > > > > on earth that CO2 levels were higher than they are now and life
> > > was
> > > > > > > > > > > abundant. So why panic if we should move towards the same levels
> > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > green
> > > > > > > > > > > house gas as in the Carboniferous?
> > > > > > > > > > > If at the same time the sun puts out more energy we may very 
> > > > > > > > > > > well
> > > > > all
> > > > > > > > > > > get
> > > > > > > > > > > fried is why.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > So many factors are still uncertain, ice is melting and sea 
> > > > > > > > > > > water
> > > > > > > levels
> > > > > > > > > > > should be rising. Instead we seem to have had a sea level drop 
> > > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > 10 mm
> > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > just a few years according to some research and this scares me
> > > > > > > > > > > seriously.
> > > > > > > > > > > If that research is correct then where did all that water (many,
> > > > > many
> > > > > > > > > > > cubic
> > > > > > > > > > > miles of water) go?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > It is almost a certainty that if both humans and the sun are
> > > > > > > responsible
> > > > > > > > > > > that we may loose all water on Earth eventually. Just maybe this
> > > is
> > > > > > > what
> > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > happening already. And maybe this is the reason that serious
> > > people
> > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > luxury to still be discussing temperature rises in single 
> > > > > > > > > > > digits.
> > > > > Water
> > > > > > > > > > > escaping the atmosphere would have a serious cooling effect for 
> > > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > while.
> > > > > > > > > > > Nothing new here, at the very moment the Turks attacking
> > Byzantium
> > > > > were
> > > > > > > > > > > breaking down the gates of that city the theologians inside 
> > > > > > > > > > > where
> > > > > > > > > > > discussing
> > > > > > > > > > > with vigour the question of how many angels could dance at the
> > one
> > > > > time
> > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > the point of a needle.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > In a real worst case scenario we may be getting temperature 
> > > > > > > > > > > rises
> > > > > of a
> > > > > > > > > few
> > > > > > > > > > > hundred degrees.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > John
> > > > > > > > > > >
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