Healthy soil and sustainable growing

["Andeanfx" <andeanfx@midrivers.com>]

Actually, I was not talking about Ireland but it sounds like I could well 
have been.  WHEW


"When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at 
all."

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John D'hondt" <dhondt@eircom.net>
To: "Healthy soil and sustainable growing" 
<livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] More on Low Dairy and Meat Diets


> You might be talking about Ireland. It is forbidden to milk without 
> license and quotum, you can not have more than 3 hens without a licence 
> (and the cost is the same for ten thousand or for three) and of course you 
> can not kill any meat for yourself. Chicken for instance can only legally 
> be killed in an abattoir near Dublin a 7 hour drive away. And there is no 
> chance of getting your own chicken back either. Vegetables are still ok 
> more or less but the use of compost or mulch is frowned upon. It is 
> forbidden to have a compost heap in the months of November-December. And 
> so on.
> john
>
> > Some time ago, yes; now, could be; future (possibly not to distant), all
> > bets are off.  When it comes down to being a criminal for growing "your 
> > own
> > food" on "your own land" in a newly 'de'developed third world country I
> > think I would put my money on or in an existing third world country that
> > already knows how to live that way and is happy doing it.
> >
> >
> > "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at
> > all."
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: <paul@oneseedling.com>
> > To: "Healthy soil and sustainable growing"
> > <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 6:10 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] More on Low Dairy and Meat Diets
> >
> >
> > > My opinion of the us is not real high, however, having lived in
> > > several foreign cointries i can say that here is way better than there.
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > On Jun 23, 2010, at 4:29 PM, "Andeanfx" <andeanfx@midrivers.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I think it is well beyond the point of demand.  Ten years a go I
> > > > presented
> > > > the local courthouse personnel with a cite for one of their own
> > > > "laws" and
> > > > was told "I don't care what you have, we have the guns and the keys
> > > > to the
> > > > jail cells".  I still cannot believe I did not pack up and leave the
> > > > country
> > > > on the spot.  Oh, That's right, I was in a very secure place with
> > > > room and
> > > > board for demanding First Amendment rights, couldn't leave.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything
> > > > at
> > > > all."
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: <pbunch@cox.net>
> > > > To: "Healthy soil and sustainable growing"
> > > > <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 2:26 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] More on Low Dairy and Meat Diets
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > I like the quote and think it points the way toward what we need to
> > > > > do. I
> > > > > think we need to demand the implementation of national steady state
> > > > > economies. We need to educate and motivate a majority of voters.
> > > > > This is
> > > > > complex and will require a lot of commitment and work.
> > > > >
> > > > > "Power concedes nothing without demand. It never has and never
> > > > > will. Show
> > > > > me
> > > > > the exact amount of wrong and injustices that are visited upon a
> > > > > person
> > > > > and I
> > > > > will show you the exact amount of words endured by these people." --
> > > > > Frederick
> > > > > Douglass
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ---- Tradingpost <tradingpost@lobo.net> wrote:
> > > > > > If you've seen my previous comments on transition then I'll try
> > > > > > not to
> > > > > > plow the same ground. You mention building community between
> > > > > > people and
> > > > > > their governments. This angle on transition seems naive. The
> > > > > > powers that
> > > > > > be, the money and ownership by the elite 1% in the US, is not
> > > > > > about to
> > > > > > turn it all over to the unwashed masses (including yours truly).
> > > > > > If we
> > > > > > learn anything from history it's that the hierarchy of great wealth
> > > > > > fights any change that limits or undoes their control of property
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > resources and people. Here's the man who said it best, before the
> > > > > > disastrous Civil War:
> > > > > >   "Power concedes nothing without demand. It never has and never
> > > > > > will.
> > > > > > Show me the exact amount of wrong and injustices that are visited
> > > > > > upon a
> > > > > > person and I will show you the exact amount of words endured by
> > > > > > these
> > > > > > people." -- Frederick Douglass
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Consider the land itself, the soil and water. Who controls how
> > > > > > land and
> > > > > > water are used, what they produce, and who profits? Almost all
> > > > > > land and
> > > > > > more and more of the water is corporate owned for profit (except
> > > > > > federal
> > > > > > land mosly in the West, which is also largely used for profit). And
> > > > > > transportation - who builds the rails, roads, airports, freeways?
> > > > > > Government. Who makes the cars, trucks, trains and planes?
> > > > > > Corporations.
> > > > > > Who profits? Corporations. Who owns the medicine, the fossil fuel
> > > > > > industry, the solar and wind power manufacturers? All corporate. Who
> > > > > > profits? Corporations. Who owns and controls the entire
> > > > > > manufacturing
> > > > > > base and banking and credit business? Corporations. Who profits?
> > > > > > Corporations. Who controls the most powerful military machine the
> > > > > > world
> > > > > > has ever seen with hundreds of bases all over the globe? Our
> > > > > > government.
> > > > > > Who pays for it? We do. Who profits? Corporations.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Now the question becomes: which part of this system is going to
> > > > > > give up
> > > > > > their legal obligation to stockholders and go out of business so
> > > > > > sustainability can take over? Which corporations will give up
> > > > > > control of
> > > > > > their lands, water, tollways, trains, planes, cars, trucks, fossil
> > > > > > fuels,
> > > > > > medicines, power plants and the entire manufacturing base of this
> > > > > > country? So what does that leave the rest of us? Very little that
> > > > > > we can
> > > > > > control for our own use to live sustainably as we see fit
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Transition towns and ecovillages mean well. But they have yet to
> > > > > > go 1% of
> > > > > > the distance. They still have to operate within the financial
> > > > > > system that
> > > > > > covers the country. They mostly drive cars to get to and from work
> > > > > > (usually for corporations) and finance ecovillage property through
> > > > > > banks.
> > > > > > They must pay the corporate power grid or pay financial
> > > > > > corporations to
> > > > > > get solar or wind power. And they grow part of their own food.
> > > > > > When it's
> > > > > > fair weather. Changing light bulbs is a bad joke. So is a $200 solar
> > > > > > setup that'll light one 45 watt bulb - when the sun is shining.
> > > > > > Oops, not
> > > > > > at night! No, it's not that easy. We have to let Nature take its
> > > > > > course
> > > > > > and try to adapt as we can.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Most of our garden beds are planted now, mostly mulched, with soaker
> > > > > > hoses from China, sold by OneStop corporation. Today we have to
> > > > > > get the
> > > > > > old van towed to the shop over a tension pulley. It would take
> > > > > > half a day
> > > > > > to get there on a horse, but we don't seem to have a horse.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > paul tradingpost@lobo.net
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 6/23/2010 at 12:00 PM Tommy Tolson wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Joseph Tainter's /The Collapse of Complex Societies/ is excellent
> > > > > > > source
> > > > > > > material backing your statement.
> > > > > > > Transition (www.transitiontowns.org) intends to build community
> > > > > > > between
> > > > > > > people and their governments in order for people to recover their
> > > > > > > power
> > > > > > > to run their lives as they see fit so they can build the Post
> > > > > > > Petroleum
> > > > > > > social infrastructure that corporate rule (especially the fossil
> > > > > > > fuel
> > > > > > > industry) has effectively prevented for the last 40 years.
> > > > > > > There's also
> > > > > > > a lot of good information at www.transitionculture.org, Rob
> > > > > > > Hopkins'
> > > > > > > blog site.  Transition is my work, when my health allows it,
> > > > > > > growing a
> > > > > > > just, sustainable world.
> > > > > > > Thanks for /Small is Beautiful/.  I'm reading it again, too.  Great
> > > > > > > book!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Smiles.
> > > > > > > Tommy
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On 6/23/10 11:26 AM, paul@oneseedling.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > Thoughout history we have suffered collapse of civlization.
> > > > > > > > Isolated
> > > > > > > > groups of families have survived by banding together for common
> > > > > > > > defence and food related activities. Thus it will be in the
> > > > > > > > future.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Jun 23, 2010, at 9:32 AM,<pbunch@cox.net>  wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
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