Healthy soil and sustainable growing

["John D'hondt" <dhondt@eircom.net>]

Maybe time to tell a true story. One of the people who had this farm before 
us, J.J. Kingston decided in 1978 to plant barley on about 160 acres of it. 
To get it plowed killed more than 8 big tractor plows some of which are 
still around the place today.
But anyway at harvest time J.J. bought a pile of bags to put the threshed 
grain in. They unfortunately needed only the one bag for they did not even 
reach one full hundred weight. There was plenty of straw though.
That is what eventually happens after continually exporting food= nutrients 
from the same land for hundreds of years. The owner after that ran more than 
300 sheep on the same ground and even when they were always escaping he made 
good money from it and also from subdividing the farm of which we now own 
some 80 acres.
We discovered that none of our planted vegetables grew those first few 
years. We found underneath the most luxurious grass pure rock here and there 
covered with concrete resembling subsoil. And it took us ten years to make 
enough good soil to enable us to grow carrots.
But those first few years it were goats that saved us. We came here with 
three small children ranging from almost 5 to less than a year old and we 
could not afford to fail having burned some bridges behind us and we were 
absolutely skinned in the land purchase process.
As vegetarians we would not have lasted a month.
Otherwise you are of course theoretically right. In another life I even 
lectured in ecology for a while myself.

But even today we are far from certain that we will see a crop from seeds 
planted. We have gotten quite good at it but even so we lost our complete 
pea crop 2 years out of the last 5. Rats! Or if not rats, rabbits, hares the 
odd deer, slugs, crows and rooks, finches taking every last single bud of 
your apple trees in winter and then climate. Frost is possible here every 
month of the year and strong gales and near hurricanes too. Not seeing the 
sun from March till September and 4 meters of rain during that time.
john in Ireland

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <pbunch@cox.net>
To: "Healthy soil and sustainable growing" 
<livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 12:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] the truth about vegetarianism


> The issue with livestock is fundamental ecology. They are secondary 
> producers, they need to eat many pounds of plant material per pound of 
> meat or milk produced.  Each pound of plant material requires space to 
> grow and in many existing systems excessive inputs of nutrients.When crops 
> are planted for direct consumption by humans the total amount of area 
> required to provide good nutrition is significantly less and the amount of 
> nitrogen and phosphorus required also is much lower. This analysis is 
> based on the ratio between land that must be dedicated to grazing verses 
> direct production of food for people. The environmental impact of food 
> production follows this ratio fairly closely.
>
> The impacts discussed in the the UN report include loss of biodiversity 
> from habitat modification (land clearing), permanent dedication of land to 
> agricultural use, the effects of nitrogen and phosphorus on water and 
> human health. Since we are already overpopulated and the amount of land 
> that can be used for agriculture is limited, they are making this 
> recommendation. It also should be noted that the capacity of our 
> supporting ecosystems to absorb and treat excess nitrogen and phosphorus 
> are limited.
>
> My own take on this is that asking people to become vegans overnight will 
> not work. Food preferences are among the most deeply seated habits and 
> desires. Many people feel deprived when they cannot eat the foods they 
> grew up with. There will be a lot of changes in peoples lives over the 
> next 20 to 50 years and it will be very important to demonstrate that 
> change does not mean that life has to be unpleasant or bad.
>
> IMHO it would be much more effective to encourage reducing the amount of 
> meat and milk in peoples diets and perhaps in the future eliminating them. 
> The environmental benefits of  reduced consumption of animal products 
> would be significant in the short to mid-term and could accomplish 
> sustainability goals over these time frames. As we approach 9 billion 
> people the proportional amount of animal products consumed will have to 
> drop to much lower levels.
>
> Phil Bunch
> Medellin, Colombia
> ---- Tommy Tolson <healinghawk@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > Richard is well on the way to feeding his family from the Permaculture
> > design in what was his yard in Santa Rosa.  As the design matures and he
> > and Janet tweak it as its feedback loops advise, it provides for them.
> > Richard walks his talk.
> >
> > Einstein, way back when, advised vegetarianism to "save the world." I
> > didn't make it up.  Nor did Richard.  The UN body that produced the
> > paper about going vegan to save this climate regime (since our national
> > governments are all corrupted by corporatist - the authoritarian
> > combination of governmental power with corporate power -money) came from
> > all over the world.  No one is coming to save us from our ignorance of
> > natural process.  We must save ourselves.  Veganism is a means by which
> > we consciously engage the process of life and reclaim our colonized
> > volitional potentials from the corporatist mind control industry.  I'm
> > not talking about the few who have learned to live with the land without
> > damaging it.  I'm talking about the multitudes who remain clueless about
> > the ecological crisis we are deeply into now on Earth.
> >
> > Livestock is the only thing that approaches plowing in sheer ecological
> > destruction wrought by the farmers of western culture, who made deserts
> > and moved on until there was nowhere to go.  It seems to me that
> > situation came about from raising livestock for money rather than
> > subsistence.  Agriculture colonized the land, enslaved it in order to
> > produce a surplus to support the priests and soldiers required by the
> > owners (banksters) of the surplus in order to maintain Master status.
> > Thus the evil economic paradigm was born expressly to attempt dominion
> > over nature.  How is that working out for us?  Making a yield isn't the
> > dumb part.  Attempting dominion over nature - which produced our species
> > - is.
> >
> > More and more Permaculture oases are sprouting in the deserts of the SW
> > US on down into Mexico as Scott Pittman and his crew get folks trained
> > in design skills for drylands Permaculture.  Putting massive amounts of
> > organic matter into pure sand within a few years forms a lens of mostly
> > rainwater that supports trees.  These designed ecosystems are there now,
> > supporting folks who live with them, tweaking them into increasing
> > fullness.  I don't know how many, if any, support livestock beyond
> > chickens and rabbits.
> >
> > I think there are ways to integrate livestock into human food production
> > systems that sustain themselves.  Chickens and rabbits are Permaculture
> > animals, easiest to integrate and maintain in ecosystemic balance.
> > Hoofed animals are harder to integrate, though not necessarily
> > impossible, as Holistic Management shows.  Chicken and rabbit "wastes"
> > are easiest to add to the natural closed cycles of a successful design.
> >
> > The bottom line is, I think, that, unless we are fortunate enough to
> > know enough pattern literacy to symbiotically join existent functional
> > ecosystems, we design and build complete ecosystems with ourselves and
> > our families designed, as symbionts, into the system from the beginning,
> > if we, from family to city scale, are to survive industrialism's pending
> > collapse.  As Stewart Brand said, we are as gods so we might as well get
> > good at it.
> >
> > Smiles.
> > Tommy
> >
> > On 6/4/10 10:30 AM, Doug Willhite wrote:
> > > I don't give a rip what the U.N. or Richard Heinberg might have to
> > > say about it... really, I don't. I've known Richard since the 1970's.
> > > He's a brilliant and talented man. But there's a vast difference
> > > between being "book smart" and being "street smart."
> > >
> > > Veganism and vegetarianism are NOT realistic or doable options for
> > > folks who are serious about taking responsibility for their own food
> > > supply.  Not around here. Not where I live. Your kind of talk --
> > > "vegan lifestyles are a survival device" -- is just plain la-la land!
> > >
> > > The myth of vegetarianism needs to be dispelled pronto.  Vegetarian
> > > ideology is currently one of the biggest obstacles to reaching local,
> > > community food self-sufficiency.
> > >
> > > doug
> > >
> >
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