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  • From: "Lynda" <lurine AT softcom.net>
  • To: <homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [Homestead] Who attacked whom? (was: It's almost over)
  • Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 15:38:39 -0800

Oh, the government can be very effective and efficient, particularly when it joins with big business. We're talking major teaching hospitals who were part and parcel in this particular eugenics project.

And another way they are efficient is that the government has very effectively kept the whole "Indian problem" under wraps. The American Indian is invisible and thus the government has been able to do as they please with them. The general American psych is programmed to see "drunken Indian" and equating Indians with getting free stuff from the government.

Also, one of the problems is evidenced in this e-mail, "then its way too far removed for me to feel personal or familial guilt." One, no one is expecting you to feel guilt. Generally, "we" don't work that way. We're generally wired different. "We" are more like homesteaders. We'd just like the government to leave us alone and give us what we are owed. We don't want all the whining on t.v. or special treatment, nor do you see any of us out there whining because of unfair/harsh court rulings that happen everyday.

Plus, it isn't your great-grandparents who were responsible (guilt wise) for the sterlization. That's much closer to home than that, as was the Hep B vaccine trials. And, much, much closer to home is the Hep A vaccine trials! Much closer as in the 1990s and 4-Corners (you're in AZ aren't you?) for the Hep A vaccine! And, once again IHS was the one of the main players.

And, it isn't so much a passion but rather just a desire to educate. To remove the blinders from just one person who might remove them from one more person. To have just one person look a little differently at the Nazi Jew/Indian (the design was taken from cartoon characatures of Jews done by a Nazi in the 1930s) on the baseball caps. Just one person to lift an eyebrow the next time someone says "yeah, I'm part Indian, my great-grandmother was a Cherokee princess." (ah, that means a hang-around-the-fort woman, aka. a ho)

Lynda
----- Original Message ----- From: "bob ford" <bobford79 AT yahoo.com>


I'll have my eyes open in the future for this kind of material , Lynda. When I said 'ability' and used asbortion as an example, it was simply because that was an option discussed in some early general eugenics material. But, my point was you had to physically have a woman for a number of days; not just a pill or a shot.

A hysterectomy was /is a big deal (you would know better than I). I just can't see the d*mn gov't efficeient or effective enough to try to surgically sterilize an entire subset of people.

I'm not on a lot of 'groups' sides, Lynda. If 'My' great-grandparents or closer didn't do it to you, then it is way too far removed for me to feel personal or familial guilt. But, our gov't made actual binding 'treaties' with the Indians. That is a Constitutional obligation and I still have allegiance to the Constitution, unlike most of today's politicians and other assorted 'best and brightest' .........

Thanks for the passion in your conversation. I will keep an open mind concerning thios subject in the future.........................


---------------------------------------------------------------------


--- On Fri, 12/5/08, Lynda <lurine AT softcom.net> wrote:

From: Lynda <lurine AT softcom.net>
Subject: Re: [Homestead] Who attacked whom? (was: It's almost over)
To: homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Friday, December 5, 2008, 1:24 PM
The basis for your disbelief is faulty, Bob.

1. ability: I'm not sure how you would think they
didn't have the ability
to carry out sterilizations. No offense but your medical
knowledge in this
area is lacking. Hysterectomies have absolutely nothing to
do with
abortions and I don't understand why you are bringing
that in as some sort
of comparison. Tubal ligations were quite common in the
60s and 70s. I
know, I had one in 1971. Didn't work for long (8 years
and 8 days to be
exact) but I did have one, none the less. It wasn't
any big deal.

2. motivation: motivation is what it has always been. Get
rid of the
Indians and you get rid of the Treaty obligations. And
greed. Those
blooming worthless savages are sitting on oil rich fields,
gas rich fields,
gold, etc., etc., etc.

3. Threat: No one said anything about a threat.
Governments don't always
operate based on threat, implied or otherwise. Governments
operate on a
multiple level basis.

4. Putting Indians first in line is simple. They were and
are a captive
audience, so to speak. The only medical available to a
large portion of the
Indian population in the U.S. is via IHS. No other ethnic
group has health
"insurance" provided solely for a single ethnic
group and as the only
medical available to them.

5. Women were admitted to IHS controlled hospitals for
supposed
appendicitis, for supposed PID, for supposed ulcers, for
supposed cancer,
for supposed kidney failure, for supposed liver biopsy, for
supposed cysts,
for supposed [fill in the blank].

6. Hysterectomies didn't take any longer then than
they do now. 3 days in
the hospital. I know, I had one.

7. Time and money? Ah, it is government run. The budgets
were unlimited
when it came to hospital admissions. The only budget
constraints were for
day to day operating expenses for the clinics. You are
somehow confusing
the average Joe on the street and how IHS works. These
people didn't have
to have insurance. It was promised as part of the
Treaties.

8. As Bev has also verified, as anyone who has ever tried
to get
documentation of something the government wants to hide
knows, documentation
only exists as long as the government wants it to. Paper
shredders were
quite prevalent back then. Perhaps you remember Nixon?

9. The stats: black: 13.6/1,000; white: 5.66/1,000;
Cuban: 4.55/1,000;
Puerto Rican: 7.82/1,000; Mexican: 5.47/1,000;
Asian/Pacific Islander:
4.67/1,000; Central/South American: 4.65/1,000; American
Indian:
8.45/1,000. BTW, mortality rates are based on any baby who
dies before
their 1st birthday, not just babies who die at birth.

Along with that, one should probably have the current birth
rates and
fertility rates (they aren't one and the same): black:
70.8/1,000, 3;
white: 58.4/1,000, 2.3; Cuban: 53.2/1,000, 1.5; Puerto
Rican: 68.4/1,000,
2.9; Mexican: 118.9/1,000, 3.2; Asian/Pacific Islander:
66.6/1,000, 2.7;
Central/South American: 97.8/1,000, 2.9; American Indian:
59.9/1,000, 2.2.

Lynda
----- Original Message ----- From: "bob ford" <bobford79 AT yahoo.com>


> Lynda, , it isn't that I don't believe the
gov't is capable in moral
> terms, gov'ts have no scruples. And, the
'people' in our gov't have
> certainly proved themselved to be unethical to the
point that I would have
> no problems believing you if not for two reasons --
ability and
> motivation.
>
> The numbers of Indians , by the 1960s were too few to
be much of a
> threat. What would be the motivation ? Ability, how?
If the gov't had
> the ability to "perform" eugenics, other
than thru abortion, which
> technology back then did not allow a clear look at the
fetus; then why was
> it not used on other subsets of society ?
>
> That is what I meant by "unbelieveable". I
don't find it believeable that
> we had the 'know-how ; or that, even if we did,
that our gov't motivations
> would havem put Indians first in line .
>
> You have to have the physical body , for a period of
time, to do a
> surgical sterilization. It would have been slower and
more expensive back
> then. The time and money required would have been too
great and there
> should have been much documentation, even if done
surreptiously by people
> involved and later released against the wishes of the
gov't.
>
> I was surprised to read about the higher birth rates
of Indian women.
> But, they didn't mention infant mortality rates
among those same women?
> I'm not a moralist, I but can empathize with your
personal feelings about
> what happended to your people. As I said before, the
reason that I
> believe in the Indian fight against the gov't , as
opposed to other
> groups, has nothing to do with morals. We have a
Constitution that
> demands that we abide by our treaties. The gov't
made treaties with
> Indians. To me, the Constitution has to be obeyed.
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> --- On Thu, 12/4/08, Lynda <lurine AT softcom.net>
wrote:
>
>> From: Lynda <lurine AT softcom.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Homestead] Who attacked whom? (was:
It's almost over)
>> To: bobford79 AT yahoo.com,
homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
>> Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 9:37 PM
>> Bob, do you really expect the white guys who were
>> responsible to accept the real numbers. Each and
every
>> report says they only checked with 4 of the 12
health
>> services. They only came up with a small number.
Gee, why
>> am I surprised.
>>
>> And, no, I don't know that alcohol effects
birthrates
>> in this instance because I have yet to see alcohol
do a
>> hysterectomy or a visectomy. If you can find me
any data
>> where that happens, I'd be more than willing
to
>> apologize and accept that I might be wrong.
>>
>> Now, for someone who doesn't trust the
government at
>> all. Someone who is usually quite happy, even
eager, to
>> jump on the conspiracy bandwagons for a whole raft
of
>> things, why is it that you are now a card carrying
>> government supporter?
>>
>> Do you honestly think the government is going to
release
>> the real numbers?
>>
>> I'll admit that the Indian is generally the
>> Indian's worst enemy. There is a whole
culture of
>> don't complain and accept with silence.
Complaining is
>> seen as whining. There is no way you'll ever
see a
>> Jesse Jackson Jr. or Sharpton from any rez. Even
the
>> protests in Washington and Sac were done rather
quietly and
>> with dignity.
>>
>> The IHS has systematically destroyed as many
records as
>> possible. Most tubal ligations were listed as
DNCs.
>> Hysterectomies were frequently listed as
appendectomies.
>> I worked on some of this. Believe me, the 40%
(female) and
>> 10% (male) are probably low! The only way to get
true
>> numbers would be to find each and every female who
was seen
>> at any of the IHS and IHS satellite offices for a
20 year
>> period. Records have conveniently disappeared
"oh,
>> they are in storage." "Oh, sorry, the
roof leaked
>> and they were destroyed." "Oh, we
changed systems
>> and I can't find the records that belong with
the old
>> numbering system." "Oh, we only keep
records
>> until they they are 3 years past 21."
>>
>> Please do tell why you would have a need to do a
>> hysterectomy on a TWELVE YEAR OLD!
>>
>> Most of these women were scared spitless of
reprisals by
>> the government and wouldn't come forward.
Many had been
>> threatened with having their children removed from
their
>> homes. Many had their children taken away from
them. It
>> was routine for them to be threatened (Head Start,
CPS,
>> p.s.) and to then have no recourse. You seem to
forget that
>> until the 1930s, an Indian had no rights in court.
The
>> government could and did do whatever they pleased.
Everyone
>> knew what the government had done to the Osage.
No one else
>> wanted a government conservator who was just as
likely to
>> murder you as they were to be an actual
conservator.
>>
>> Your government has a LONG history of eugenics
against the
>> People!
>>
>> Lynda
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "bob
ford"
>> <bobford79 AT yahoo.com>
>>
>>
>> > I just read the first two paragraphs and will
read the
>> rest later. So far, it says some Indians have
accused the
>> gov't of sterilizing up to 25% (which I still
find
>> unbelieveable). I'l finish later but think
you might be
>> exaggerating. You know as well as I do, that
alcohol has
>> something to do with the birthrate. It might not
be
>> politically correct to say, but alcohol affects
Indians
>> differently than others. I will read further.
>> >
>> >
>>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> >
>> > --- On Thu, 12/4/08, Lynda
<lurine AT softcom.net>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> From: Lynda <lurine AT softcom.net>
>> >> Subject: Re: [Homestead] Who attacked
whom? (was:
>> It's almost over)
>> >> To: homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
>> >> Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 4:47 PM
>> >> Ah, Bob. I would suggest you do some
reading
>> about history.
>> >> The government
>> >> instituted a program in the 60s and 70s
inwhich
>> they
>> >> sterilized over 40% of
>> >> the Indians who were of child bearing
age.
>> >>
>> >> Wouldn't think of giving you any
newspaper
>> article but
>> >> I would refer you to
>> >> Congressional records! The GAO report.
The
>> American
>> >> Indian Policy Review
>> >> Commission's Report on Indian Health.
Public
>> Health
>> >> Aspects of
>> >> Contraceptive Serilization. American
Indian Women
>> and IHS
>> >> Sterlization
>> >> Practices. Killing Our Future:
Sterlization and
>> >> Experiments. And Then
>> >> There Were None: Is Federal Policy
Endangering
>> the
>> >> American Indian Species.
>> >> Also, numerous articles in well respected
journals
>> such as
>> >> the American
>> >> Journal of Public Health and even the
U.S. Dept.
>> of HEW has
>> >> many reports on
>> >> this.
>> >>
>> >> Here's one article just to get you
started
>> >>
>>
http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/american_indian_quarterly/v024/24.3lawrence.html
>> >>
>> >> Lynda
>> >> ----- Original Message ----- From:
"bob
>> ford" <bobford79 AT yahoo.com>
>> >> To: "Lynda"
<lurine AT softcom.net>;
>> >> <homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org>
>> >> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 3:30 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: [Homestead] Who attacked
whom? (was:
>> It's
>> >> almost over)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Now, I have completely agreed with
your
>> greviances, as
>> >> an Indian, and said
>> >> > that the gov't is required to
make things
>> right ,
>> >> because of the
>> >> > Constitution. Why do you have to
throw in
>> something
>> >> like sterilizing 40%
>> >> > of the modern Indians, That has not
>> happened.
>> >> >
>> >> > The gov't did have a hand in
killing off
>> many
>> >> (most) Indians, and
>> >> > stealing your land through broken
treaties.
>> But,
>> >> I'm going to need more
>> >> > than a left-wing newspaper article
to believe
>> that we
>> >> (the gov't)
>> >> > sterilized 40% of the few of you
that were
>> left. If
>> >> they did that
>> >> > successfully, why did they not do it
to
>> >> "blacks" when they were in the
>> >> > unfavorable column? It wasn't
>> >> possible.............
>> >> >
>> >> > p.s. My cherokee friend was not at
boarding
>> school.
>> >> His father was a cop.
>> >> > My friend played all sports, was in
the
>> normal clubs,
>> >> did all of the
>> >> > normal stuff. He was proud of his
Cherokee
>> heritage,
>> >> but he was just one
>> >> > of the guys. Maybe, today, he looks
at it
>> >> differently, I don't know.
>> >> > 'haven't talked to him in
>> >>
decades.....................................
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --- On Thu, 12/4/08, Lynda
>> <lurine AT softcom.net>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> From: Lynda
<lurine AT softcom.net>
>> >> >> Subject: Re: [Homestead] Who
attacked
>> whom? (was:
>> >> It's almost over)
>> >> >> To: bobford79 AT yahoo.com,
>> >> homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
>> >> >> Date: Thursday, December 4,
2008, 4:21 PM
>> >> >> We have never been of the whine
and
>> snivel type
>> >> <g>
>> >> >> We've begun using the
courts, the
>> Constitution
>> >> AND the
>> >> >> UN.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> And, yup, I'll bet your
friend did
>> consider
>> >> himself
>> >> >> "white" because that
was a way
>> to
>> >> survive. AND,
>> >> >> also a wanted result from the
boarding
>> schools.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The boarding schools didn't
take with
>> us so
>> >> well. In
>> >> >> fact, just made most of my aunts
and
>> uncles and
>> >> cousins,
>> >> >> etc. more anti-white,
anti-christian. Of
>> course,
>> >> part of it
>> >> >> might have to do with those nice
>> christian folks
>> >> killing my
>> >> >> uncle.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Nope, we aren't multiplying
like
>> other folks.
>> >> The
>> >> >> government went out of their way
to be
>> sure the
>> >> red folks
>> >> >> couldn't multiple. When you
>> sterilize over
>> >> 40% of any
>> >> >> given ethnic population you
kind of put
>> a crimp
>> >> in their
>> >> >> reproductive activies. Guess
they were
>> scared
>> >> that we
>> >> >> viewed them all as more
potential
>> Custards and
>> >> might invoke
>> >> >> more Ghost Dances <g>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Lynda
>> >> >>
>> >> >> P.S. Don't anyone going
assigning
>> tone to
>> >> these
>> >> >> e-mails. I'm just sharing
facts and
>> writing
>> >> as I would
>> >> >> speak if we were all sitting
around the
>> woodstove
>> >> sharing
>> >> >> some pasta e figoli (made using
my smoked
>> turkey
>> >> broth) with
>> >> >> hot garlic bread (dinner tonight
>> <g>)
>> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
From:
>> "bob
>> >> ford"
>> >> >> <bobford79 AT yahoo.com>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > The problem with what you
wrote
>> Lynda is that
>> >> there
>> >> >> are not enough of you left to
get away
>> with being
>> >> as
>> >> >> antagonistic as the
"Black" or
>> >> "brown"
>> >> >> "folks" -- and , it is
starting
>> to wear
>> >> thin and
>> >> >> not work as well for them, also.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Your people have not
multiplied in
>> sufficient
>> >> numbers
>> >> >> as did the black and brown
people (I
>> guess you are
>> >> old
>> >> >> school and consider your self
>> "Red").
>> >> The good
>> >> >> full blood Cherokee friend I had
growing
>> up
>> >> considered
>> >> >> himself "white".
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > The Treaties and the
Constitution
>> really is
>> >> your ace
>> >> >> in the hole
>> >> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
_______________________________________________
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>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
_______________________________________________
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>> >
>
>
>

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