Homestead mailing list

["Lynda" <lurine AT softcom.net>]

The basis for your disbelief is faulty, Bob.

1.  ability:  I'm not sure how you would think they didn't have the ability 
to carry out sterilizations.  No offense but your medical knowledge in this 
area is lacking.  Hysterectomies have absolutely nothing to do with 
abortions and I don't understand why you are bringing that in as some sort 
of comparison.  Tubal ligations were quite common in the 60s and 70s.  I 
know, I had one in 1971.  Didn't work for long (8 years and 8 days to be 
exact) but I did have one, none the less.  It wasn't any big deal.

2.  motivation: motivation is what it has always been.  Get rid of the 
Indians and you get rid of the Treaty obligations.  And greed.  Those 
blooming worthless savages are sitting on oil rich fields, gas rich fields, 
gold, etc., etc., etc.

3.  Threat:  No one said anything about a threat.  Governments don't always 
operate based on threat, implied or otherwise.  Governments operate on a 
multiple level basis.

4.  Putting Indians first in line is simple.  They were and are a captive 
audience, so to speak.  The only medical available to a large portion of the 
Indian population in the U.S. is via IHS.  No other ethnic group has health 
"insurance" provided solely for a single ethnic group and as the only 
medical available to them.

5.  Women were admitted to IHS controlled hospitals for supposed 
appendicitis, for supposed PID, for supposed ulcers, for supposed cancer, 
for supposed kidney failure, for supposed liver biopsy, for supposed cysts, 
for supposed [fill in the blank].

6.  Hysterectomies didn't take any longer then than they do now.  3 days in 
the hospital.  I know, I had one.

7.  Time and money?  Ah, it is government run.  The budgets were unlimited 
when it came to hospital admissions.  The only budget constraints were for 
day to day operating expenses for the clinics.  You are somehow confusing 
the average Joe on the street and how IHS works.  These people didn't have 
to have insurance.  It was promised as part of the Treaties.

8.  As Bev has also verified, as anyone who has ever tried to get 
documentation of something the government wants to hide knows, documentation 
only exists as long as the government wants it to.  Paper shredders were 
quite prevalent back then.  Perhaps you remember Nixon?

9.  The stats:  black: 13.6/1,000; white: 5.66/1,000; Cuban: 4.55/1,000; 
Puerto Rican:  7.82/1,000; Mexican:  5.47/1,000; Asian/Pacific Islander: 
4.67/1,000; Central/South American:  4.65/1,000; American Indian: 
8.45/1,000.  BTW, mortality rates are based on any baby who dies before 
their 1st birthday, not just babies who die at birth.

Along with that, one should probably have the current birth rates and 
fertility rates (they aren't one and the same):  black:  70.8/1,000, 3; 
white: 58.4/1,000, 2.3; Cuban:  53.2/1,000, 1.5; Puerto Rican: 68.4/1,000, 
2.9; Mexican:  118.9/1,000, 3.2; Asian/Pacific Islander: 66.6/1,000, 2.7; 
Central/South American:  97.8/1,000, 2.9; American Indian:  59.9/1,000, 2.2.

Lynda
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "bob ford" <bobford79 AT yahoo.com>


> Lynda, , it isn't that I don't believe the gov't is capable in moral 
> terms, gov'ts have no scruples.  And, the 'people' in our gov't have 
> certainly proved themselved to be unethical to the point that I would have 
> no problems believing you if not for two reasons -- ability and 
> motivation.
>
>  The numbers of Indians , by the 1960s were too few to be much of a 
> threat.  What would be the motivation ?  Ability, how?  If the gov't had 
> the ability to "perform" eugenics, other than thru abortion, which 
> technology back then did not allow a clear look at the fetus; then why was 
> it not used on other  subsets of society ?
>
> That is what I meant by "unbelieveable".  I don't find it believeable that 
> we had the 'know-how ; or that, even if we did, that our gov't motivations 
> would havem put Indians first in line .
>
> You have to have the physical body , for a period of time, to do a 
> surgical sterilization.  It would have been slower and more expensive back 
> then.  The time and money required would have been too great and there 
> should have been much documentation, even if done surreptiously by people 
> involved and later released against the wishes of the gov't.
>
> I was surprised to read about the higher birth rates of Indian women. 
> But, they didn't mention infant mortality rates among those same women?
> I'm not a moralist, I but can empathize with your personal feelings about 
> what happended to your people.  As I said before, the reason that I 
> believe in the Indian fight against the gov't , as opposed to other 
> groups, has nothing to do with morals.  We have a Constitution that 
> demands that we abide by our treaties.  The gov't made treaties with 
> Indians.  To me, the Constitution has to be obeyed.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> --- On Thu, 12/4/08, Lynda <lurine AT softcom.net> wrote:
>
> > From: Lynda <lurine AT softcom.net>
> > Subject: Re: [Homestead] Who attacked whom? (was: It's almost over)
> > To: bobford79 AT yahoo.com, homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 9:37 PM
> > Bob, do you really expect the white guys who were
> > responsible to accept the real numbers.  Each and every
> > report says they only checked with 4 of the 12 health
> > services.  They only came up with a small number.  Gee, why
> > am I surprised.
> >
> > And, no, I don't know that alcohol effects birthrates
> > in this instance because I have yet to see alcohol do a
> > hysterectomy or a visectomy.  If you can find me any data
> > where that happens, I'd be more than willing to
> > apologize and accept that I might be wrong.
> >
> > Now, for someone who doesn't trust the government at
> > all.  Someone who is usually quite happy, even eager, to
> > jump on the conspiracy bandwagons for a whole raft of
> > things, why is it that you are now a card carrying
> > government supporter?
> >
> > Do you honestly think the government is going to release
> > the real numbers?
> >
> > I'll admit that the Indian is generally the
> > Indian's worst enemy.  There is a whole culture of
> > don't complain and accept with silence.  Complaining is
> > seen as whining.  There is no way you'll ever see a
> > Jesse Jackson Jr. or Sharpton from any rez.  Even the
> > protests in Washington and Sac were done rather quietly and
> > with dignity.
> >
> > The IHS has systematically destroyed as many records as
> > possible.  Most tubal ligations were listed as DNCs.
> > Hysterectomies were frequently listed as appendectomies.
> > I worked on some of this.  Believe me, the 40% (female) and
> > 10% (male) are probably low!  The only way to get true
> > numbers would be to find each and every female who was seen
> > at any of the IHS and IHS satellite offices for a 20 year
> > period.  Records have conveniently disappeared "oh,
> > they are in storage."  "Oh, sorry, the roof leaked
> > and they were destroyed."  "Oh, we changed systems
> > and I can't find the records that belong with the old
> > numbering system."  "Oh, we only keep records
> > until they they are 3 years past 21."
> >
> > Please do tell why you would have a need to do a
> > hysterectomy on a TWELVE YEAR OLD!
> >
> > Most of these women were scared spitless of reprisals by
> > the government and wouldn't come forward.  Many had been
> > threatened with having their children removed from their
> > homes.  Many had their children taken away from them.  It
> > was routine for them to be threatened (Head Start, CPS,
> > p.s.) and to then have no recourse.  You seem to forget that
> > until the 1930s, an Indian had no rights in court.  The
> > government could and did do whatever they pleased. Everyone
> > knew what the government had done to the Osage.  No one else
> > wanted a government conservator who was just as likely to
> > murder you as they were to be an actual conservator.
> >
> > Your government has a LONG history of eugenics against the
> > People!
> >
> > Lynda
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "bob ford"
> > <bobford79 AT yahoo.com>
> >
> >
> > > I just read the first two paragraphs and will read the
> > rest later.  So far, it says some Indians have accused the
> > gov't of sterilizing up to 25% (which I still find
> > unbelieveable).  I'l finish later but think you might be
> > exaggerating.  You know as well as I do, that alcohol has
> > something to do with the birthrate.  It might not be
> > politically correct to say, but alcohol affects Indians
> > differently than others.  I will read further.
> > >
> > >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> > > --- On Thu, 12/4/08, Lynda <lurine AT softcom.net>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >> From: Lynda <lurine AT softcom.net>
> > >> Subject: Re: [Homestead] Who attacked whom? (was:
> > It's almost over)
> > >> To: homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > >> Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 4:47 PM
> > >> Ah, Bob.  I would suggest you do some reading
> > about history.
> > >>  The government
> > >> instituted a program in the 60s and 70s inwhich
> > they
> > >> sterilized over 40% of
> > >> the Indians who were of child bearing age.
> > >>
> > >> Wouldn't think of giving you any newspaper
> > article but
> > >> I would refer you to
> > >> Congressional records!  The GAO report.  The
> > American
> > >> Indian Policy Review
> > >> Commission's Report on Indian Health.  Public
> > Health
> > >> Aspects of
> > >> Contraceptive Serilization.  American Indian Women
> > and IHS
> > >> Sterlization
> > >> Practices.  Killing Our Future:  Sterlization and
> > >> Experiments.  And Then
> > >> There Were None:  Is Federal Policy Endangering
> > the
> > >> American Indian Species.
> > >> Also, numerous articles in well respected journals
> > such as
> > >> the American
> > >> Journal of Public Health and even the U.S. Dept.
> > of HEW has
> > >> many reports on
> > >> this.
> > >>
> > >> Here's one article just to get you started
> > >>
> > http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/american_indian_quarterly/v024/24.3lawrence.html
> > >>
> > >> Lynda
> > >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "bob
> > ford" <bobford79 AT yahoo.com>
> > >> To: "Lynda" <lurine AT softcom.net>;
> > >> <homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> > >> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 3:30 PM
> > >> Subject: Re: [Homestead] Who attacked whom? (was:
> > It's
> > >> almost over)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> > Now, I have completely agreed with your
> > greviances, as
> > >> an Indian, and said
> > >> > that the gov't is required to make things
> > right ,
> > >> because of the
> > >> > Constitution.  Why do you have to throw in
> > something
> > >> like sterilizing 40%
> > >> > of the modern Indians,  That has not
> > happened.
> > >> >
> > >> >  The gov't did have a hand in killing off
> > many
> > >> (most) Indians, and
> > >> > stealing your land through broken treaties.
> > But,
> > >> I'm going to need more
> > >> > than a left-wing newspaper article to believe
> > that we
> > >> (the gov't)
> > >> > sterilized 40% of the few of you that were
> > left.  If
> > >> they did that
> > >> > successfully, why did they not do it to
> > >> "blacks" when they were in the
> > >> > unfavorable column?  It wasn't
> > >> possible.............
> > >> >
> > >> > p.s. My cherokee friend was not at boarding
> > school.
> > >> His father was a cop.
> > >> > My friend played all sports, was in the
> > normal clubs,
> > >> did all of the
> > >> > normal stuff.  He was proud of his Cherokee
> > heritage,
> > >> but he was just one
> > >> > of the guys.  Maybe, today, he looks at it
> > >> differently, I don't know.
> > >> > 'haven't talked to him in
> > >> decades.....................................
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > --- On Thu, 12/4/08, Lynda
> > <lurine AT softcom.net>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >> From: Lynda <lurine AT softcom.net>
> > >> >> Subject: Re: [Homestead] Who attacked
> > whom? (was:
> > >> It's almost over)
> > >> >> To: bobford79 AT yahoo.com,
> > >> homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > >> >> Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 4:21 PM
> > >> >> We have never been of the whine and
> > snivel type
> > >> <g>
> > >> >> We've begun using the courts, the
> > Constitution
> > >> AND the
> > >> >> UN.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> And, yup, I'll bet your friend did
> > consider
> > >> himself
> > >> >> "white" because that was a way
> > to
> > >> survive.  AND,
> > >> >> also a wanted result from the boarding
> > schools.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> The boarding schools didn't take with
> > us so
> > >> well.  In
> > >> >> fact, just made most of my aunts and
> > uncles and
> > >> cousins,
> > >> >> etc. more anti-white, anti-christian. Of
> > course,
> > >> part of it
> > >> >> might have to do with those nice
> > christian folks
> > >> killing my
> > >> >> uncle.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Nope, we aren't multiplying like
> > other folks.
> > >> The
> > >> >> government went out of their way to be
> > sure the
> > >> red folks
> > >> >> couldn't multiple.  When you
> > sterilize over
> > >> 40% of any
> > >> >> given ethnic population  you kind of put
> > a crimp
> > >> in their
> > >> >> reproductive activies.  Guess they were
> > scared
> > >> that we
> > >> >> viewed them all as more potential
> > Custards and
> > >> might invoke
> > >> >> more Ghost Dances <g>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Lynda
> > >> >>
> > >> >> P.S.  Don't anyone going assigning
> > tone to
> > >> these
> > >> >> e-mails.  I'm just sharing facts and
> > writing
> > >> as I would
> > >> >> speak if we were all sitting around the
> > woodstove
> > >> sharing
> > >> >> some pasta e figoli (made using my smoked
> > turkey
> > >> broth) with
> > >> >> hot garlic bread (dinner tonight
> > <g>)
> > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From:
> > "bob
> > >> ford"
> > >> >> <bobford79 AT yahoo.com>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> > The problem with what you wrote
> > Lynda is that
> > >> there
> > >> >> are not enough of you left to get away
> > with being
> > >> as
> > >> >> antagonistic as the "Black" or
> > >> "brown"
> > >> >> "folks" -- and , it is starting
> > to wear
> > >> thin and
> > >> >> not work as well for them, also.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > Your people have not multiplied in
> > sufficient
> > >> numbers
> > >> >> as did the black and brown people (I
> > guess you are
> > >> old
> > >> >> school and consider your self
> > "Red").
> > >> The good
> > >> >> full blood Cherokee friend I had growing
> > up
> > >> considered
> > >> >> himself "white".
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > The Treaties and the Constitution
> > really is
> > >> your ace
> > >> >> in the hole
> > >> >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
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> > >
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