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  • From: "Lynda" <lurine AT softcom.net>
  • To: <homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [Homestead] Who attacked whom? (was: It's almost over)
  • Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:24:40 -0800

The basis for your disbelief is faulty, Bob.

1. ability: I'm not sure how you would think they didn't have the ability to carry out sterilizations. No offense but your medical knowledge in this area is lacking. Hysterectomies have absolutely nothing to do with abortions and I don't understand why you are bringing that in as some sort of comparison. Tubal ligations were quite common in the 60s and 70s. I know, I had one in 1971. Didn't work for long (8 years and 8 days to be exact) but I did have one, none the less. It wasn't any big deal.

2. motivation: motivation is what it has always been. Get rid of the Indians and you get rid of the Treaty obligations. And greed. Those blooming worthless savages are sitting on oil rich fields, gas rich fields, gold, etc., etc., etc.

3. Threat: No one said anything about a threat. Governments don't always operate based on threat, implied or otherwise. Governments operate on a multiple level basis.

4. Putting Indians first in line is simple. They were and are a captive audience, so to speak. The only medical available to a large portion of the Indian population in the U.S. is via IHS. No other ethnic group has health "insurance" provided solely for a single ethnic group and as the only medical available to them.

5. Women were admitted to IHS controlled hospitals for supposed appendicitis, for supposed PID, for supposed ulcers, for supposed cancer, for supposed kidney failure, for supposed liver biopsy, for supposed cysts, for supposed [fill in the blank].

6. Hysterectomies didn't take any longer then than they do now. 3 days in the hospital. I know, I had one.

7. Time and money? Ah, it is government run. The budgets were unlimited when it came to hospital admissions. The only budget constraints were for day to day operating expenses for the clinics. You are somehow confusing the average Joe on the street and how IHS works. These people didn't have to have insurance. It was promised as part of the Treaties.

8. As Bev has also verified, as anyone who has ever tried to get documentation of something the government wants to hide knows, documentation only exists as long as the government wants it to. Paper shredders were quite prevalent back then. Perhaps you remember Nixon?

9. The stats: black: 13.6/1,000; white: 5.66/1,000; Cuban: 4.55/1,000; Puerto Rican: 7.82/1,000; Mexican: 5.47/1,000; Asian/Pacific Islander: 4.67/1,000; Central/South American: 4.65/1,000; American Indian: 8.45/1,000. BTW, mortality rates are based on any baby who dies before their 1st birthday, not just babies who die at birth.

Along with that, one should probably have the current birth rates and fertility rates (they aren't one and the same): black: 70.8/1,000, 3; white: 58.4/1,000, 2.3; Cuban: 53.2/1,000, 1.5; Puerto Rican: 68.4/1,000, 2.9; Mexican: 118.9/1,000, 3.2; Asian/Pacific Islander: 66.6/1,000, 2.7; Central/South American: 97.8/1,000, 2.9; American Indian: 59.9/1,000, 2.2.

Lynda
----- Original Message ----- From: "bob ford" <bobford79 AT yahoo.com>


Lynda, , it isn't that I don't believe the gov't is capable in moral terms, gov'ts have no scruples. And, the 'people' in our gov't have certainly proved themselved to be unethical to the point that I would have no problems believing you if not for two reasons -- ability and motivation.

The numbers of Indians , by the 1960s were too few to be much of a threat. What would be the motivation ? Ability, how? If the gov't had the ability to "perform" eugenics, other than thru abortion, which technology back then did not allow a clear look at the fetus; then why was it not used on other subsets of society ?

That is what I meant by "unbelieveable". I don't find it believeable that we had the 'know-how ; or that, even if we did, that our gov't motivations would havem put Indians first in line .

You have to have the physical body , for a period of time, to do a surgical sterilization. It would have been slower and more expensive back then. The time and money required would have been too great and there should have been much documentation, even if done surreptiously by people involved and later released against the wishes of the gov't.

I was surprised to read about the higher birth rates of Indian women. But, they didn't mention infant mortality rates among those same women?
I'm not a moralist, I but can empathize with your personal feelings about what happended to your people. As I said before, the reason that I believe in the Indian fight against the gov't , as opposed to other groups, has nothing to do with morals. We have a Constitution that demands that we abide by our treaties. The gov't made treaties with Indians. To me, the Constitution has to be obeyed.

----------------------------------------------------------------------


--- On Thu, 12/4/08, Lynda <lurine AT softcom.net> wrote:

From: Lynda <lurine AT softcom.net>
Subject: Re: [Homestead] Who attacked whom? (was: It's almost over)
To: bobford79 AT yahoo.com, homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 9:37 PM
Bob, do you really expect the white guys who were
responsible to accept the real numbers. Each and every
report says they only checked with 4 of the 12 health
services. They only came up with a small number. Gee, why
am I surprised.

And, no, I don't know that alcohol effects birthrates
in this instance because I have yet to see alcohol do a
hysterectomy or a visectomy. If you can find me any data
where that happens, I'd be more than willing to
apologize and accept that I might be wrong.

Now, for someone who doesn't trust the government at
all. Someone who is usually quite happy, even eager, to
jump on the conspiracy bandwagons for a whole raft of
things, why is it that you are now a card carrying
government supporter?

Do you honestly think the government is going to release
the real numbers?

I'll admit that the Indian is generally the
Indian's worst enemy. There is a whole culture of
don't complain and accept with silence. Complaining is
seen as whining. There is no way you'll ever see a
Jesse Jackson Jr. or Sharpton from any rez. Even the
protests in Washington and Sac were done rather quietly and
with dignity.

The IHS has systematically destroyed as many records as
possible. Most tubal ligations were listed as DNCs.
Hysterectomies were frequently listed as appendectomies.
I worked on some of this. Believe me, the 40% (female) and
10% (male) are probably low! The only way to get true
numbers would be to find each and every female who was seen
at any of the IHS and IHS satellite offices for a 20 year
period. Records have conveniently disappeared "oh,
they are in storage." "Oh, sorry, the roof leaked
and they were destroyed." "Oh, we changed systems
and I can't find the records that belong with the old
numbering system." "Oh, we only keep records
until they they are 3 years past 21."

Please do tell why you would have a need to do a
hysterectomy on a TWELVE YEAR OLD!

Most of these women were scared spitless of reprisals by
the government and wouldn't come forward. Many had been
threatened with having their children removed from their
homes. Many had their children taken away from them. It
was routine for them to be threatened (Head Start, CPS,
p.s.) and to then have no recourse. You seem to forget that
until the 1930s, an Indian had no rights in court. The
government could and did do whatever they pleased. Everyone
knew what the government had done to the Osage. No one else
wanted a government conservator who was just as likely to
murder you as they were to be an actual conservator.

Your government has a LONG history of eugenics against the
People!

Lynda
----- Original Message ----- From: "bob ford"
<bobford79 AT yahoo.com>


> I just read the first two paragraphs and will read the
rest later. So far, it says some Indians have accused the
gov't of sterilizing up to 25% (which I still find
unbelieveable). I'l finish later but think you might be
exaggerating. You know as well as I do, that alcohol has
something to do with the birthrate. It might not be
politically correct to say, but alcohol affects Indians
differently than others. I will read further.
>
>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> --- On Thu, 12/4/08, Lynda <lurine AT softcom.net>
wrote:
>
>> From: Lynda <lurine AT softcom.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Homestead] Who attacked whom? (was:
It's almost over)
>> To: homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
>> Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 4:47 PM
>> Ah, Bob. I would suggest you do some reading
about history.
>> The government
>> instituted a program in the 60s and 70s inwhich
they
>> sterilized over 40% of
>> the Indians who were of child bearing age.
>>
>> Wouldn't think of giving you any newspaper
article but
>> I would refer you to
>> Congressional records! The GAO report. The
American
>> Indian Policy Review
>> Commission's Report on Indian Health. Public
Health
>> Aspects of
>> Contraceptive Serilization. American Indian Women
and IHS
>> Sterlization
>> Practices. Killing Our Future: Sterlization and
>> Experiments. And Then
>> There Were None: Is Federal Policy Endangering
the
>> American Indian Species.
>> Also, numerous articles in well respected journals
such as
>> the American
>> Journal of Public Health and even the U.S. Dept.
of HEW has
>> many reports on
>> this.
>>
>> Here's one article just to get you started
>>
http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/american_indian_quarterly/v024/24.3lawrence.html
>>
>> Lynda
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "bob
ford" <bobford79 AT yahoo.com>
>> To: "Lynda" <lurine AT softcom.net>;
>> <homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 3:30 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Homestead] Who attacked whom? (was:
It's
>> almost over)
>>
>>
>> > Now, I have completely agreed with your
greviances, as
>> an Indian, and said
>> > that the gov't is required to make things
right ,
>> because of the
>> > Constitution. Why do you have to throw in
something
>> like sterilizing 40%
>> > of the modern Indians, That has not
happened.
>> >
>> > The gov't did have a hand in killing off
many
>> (most) Indians, and
>> > stealing your land through broken treaties.
But,
>> I'm going to need more
>> > than a left-wing newspaper article to believe
that we
>> (the gov't)
>> > sterilized 40% of the few of you that were
left. If
>> they did that
>> > successfully, why did they not do it to
>> "blacks" when they were in the
>> > unfavorable column? It wasn't
>> possible.............
>> >
>> > p.s. My cherokee friend was not at boarding
school.
>> His father was a cop.
>> > My friend played all sports, was in the
normal clubs,
>> did all of the
>> > normal stuff. He was proud of his Cherokee
heritage,
>> but he was just one
>> > of the guys. Maybe, today, he looks at it
>> differently, I don't know.
>> > 'haven't talked to him in
>> decades.....................................
>> >
>> >
>>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> >
>> > --- On Thu, 12/4/08, Lynda
<lurine AT softcom.net>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> From: Lynda <lurine AT softcom.net>
>> >> Subject: Re: [Homestead] Who attacked
whom? (was:
>> It's almost over)
>> >> To: bobford79 AT yahoo.com,
>> homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
>> >> Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 4:21 PM
>> >> We have never been of the whine and
snivel type
>> <g>
>> >> We've begun using the courts, the
Constitution
>> AND the
>> >> UN.
>> >>
>> >> And, yup, I'll bet your friend did
consider
>> himself
>> >> "white" because that was a way
to
>> survive. AND,
>> >> also a wanted result from the boarding
schools.
>> >>
>> >> The boarding schools didn't take with
us so
>> well. In
>> >> fact, just made most of my aunts and
uncles and
>> cousins,
>> >> etc. more anti-white, anti-christian. Of
course,
>> part of it
>> >> might have to do with those nice
christian folks
>> killing my
>> >> uncle.
>> >>
>> >> Nope, we aren't multiplying like
other folks.
>> The
>> >> government went out of their way to be
sure the
>> red folks
>> >> couldn't multiple. When you
sterilize over
>> 40% of any
>> >> given ethnic population you kind of put
a crimp
>> in their
>> >> reproductive activies. Guess they were
scared
>> that we
>> >> viewed them all as more potential
Custards and
>> might invoke
>> >> more Ghost Dances <g>
>> >>
>> >> Lynda
>> >>
>> >> P.S. Don't anyone going assigning
tone to
>> these
>> >> e-mails. I'm just sharing facts and
writing
>> as I would
>> >> speak if we were all sitting around the
woodstove
>> sharing
>> >> some pasta e figoli (made using my smoked
turkey
>> broth) with
>> >> hot garlic bread (dinner tonight
<g>)
>> >> ----- Original Message ----- From:
"bob
>> ford"
>> >> <bobford79 AT yahoo.com>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > The problem with what you wrote
Lynda is that
>> there
>> >> are not enough of you left to get away
with being
>> as
>> >> antagonistic as the "Black" or
>> "brown"
>> >> "folks" -- and , it is starting
to wear
>> thin and
>> >> not work as well for them, also.
>> >> >
>> >> > Your people have not multiplied in
sufficient
>> numbers
>> >> as did the black and brown people (I
guess you are
>> old
>> >> school and consider your self
"Red").
>> The good
>> >> full blood Cherokee friend I had growing
up
>> considered
>> >> himself "white".
>> >> >
>> >> > The Treaties and the Constitution
really is
>> your ace
>> >> in the hole
>> >> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
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