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  • From: bob ford <bobford79 AT yahoo.com>
  • To: homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [Homestead] Who attacked whom? (was: It's almost over)
  • Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 13:15:20 -0800 (PST)

I'll have my eyes open in the future for this kind of material , Lynda. When
I said 'ability' and used asbortion as an example, it was simply because that
was an option discussed in some early general eugenics material. But, my
point was you had to physically have a woman for a number of days; not just a
pill or a shot.

A hysterectomy was /is a big deal (you would know better than I). I just
can't see the d*mn gov't efficeient or effective enough to try to surgically
sterilize an entire subset of people.

I'm not on a lot of 'groups' sides, Lynda. If 'My' great-grandparents or
closer didn't do it to you, then it is way too far removed for me to feel
personal or familial guilt. But, our gov't made actual binding 'treaties'
with the Indians. That is a Constitutional obligation and I still have
allegiance to the Constitution, unlike most of today's politicians and other
assorted 'best and brightest' .........

Thanks for the passion in your conversation. I will keep an open mind
concerning thios subject in the future.........................


---------------------------------------------------------------------


--- On Fri, 12/5/08, Lynda <lurine AT softcom.net> wrote:

> From: Lynda <lurine AT softcom.net>
> Subject: Re: [Homestead] Who attacked whom? (was: It's almost over)
> To: homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Friday, December 5, 2008, 1:24 PM
> The basis for your disbelief is faulty, Bob.
>
> 1. ability: I'm not sure how you would think they
> didn't have the ability
> to carry out sterilizations. No offense but your medical
> knowledge in this
> area is lacking. Hysterectomies have absolutely nothing to
> do with
> abortions and I don't understand why you are bringing
> that in as some sort
> of comparison. Tubal ligations were quite common in the
> 60s and 70s. I
> know, I had one in 1971. Didn't work for long (8 years
> and 8 days to be
> exact) but I did have one, none the less. It wasn't
> any big deal.
>
> 2. motivation: motivation is what it has always been. Get
> rid of the
> Indians and you get rid of the Treaty obligations. And
> greed. Those
> blooming worthless savages are sitting on oil rich fields,
> gas rich fields,
> gold, etc., etc., etc.
>
> 3. Threat: No one said anything about a threat.
> Governments don't always
> operate based on threat, implied or otherwise. Governments
> operate on a
> multiple level basis.
>
> 4. Putting Indians first in line is simple. They were and
> are a captive
> audience, so to speak. The only medical available to a
> large portion of the
> Indian population in the U.S. is via IHS. No other ethnic
> group has health
> "insurance" provided solely for a single ethnic
> group and as the only
> medical available to them.
>
> 5. Women were admitted to IHS controlled hospitals for
> supposed
> appendicitis, for supposed PID, for supposed ulcers, for
> supposed cancer,
> for supposed kidney failure, for supposed liver biopsy, for
> supposed cysts,
> for supposed [fill in the blank].
>
> 6. Hysterectomies didn't take any longer then than
> they do now. 3 days in
> the hospital. I know, I had one.
>
> 7. Time and money? Ah, it is government run. The budgets
> were unlimited
> when it came to hospital admissions. The only budget
> constraints were for
> day to day operating expenses for the clinics. You are
> somehow confusing
> the average Joe on the street and how IHS works. These
> people didn't have
> to have insurance. It was promised as part of the
> Treaties.
>
> 8. As Bev has also verified, as anyone who has ever tried
> to get
> documentation of something the government wants to hide
> knows, documentation
> only exists as long as the government wants it to. Paper
> shredders were
> quite prevalent back then. Perhaps you remember Nixon?
>
> 9. The stats: black: 13.6/1,000; white: 5.66/1,000;
> Cuban: 4.55/1,000;
> Puerto Rican: 7.82/1,000; Mexican: 5.47/1,000;
> Asian/Pacific Islander:
> 4.67/1,000; Central/South American: 4.65/1,000; American
> Indian:
> 8.45/1,000. BTW, mortality rates are based on any baby who
> dies before
> their 1st birthday, not just babies who die at birth.
>
> Along with that, one should probably have the current birth
> rates and
> fertility rates (they aren't one and the same): black:
> 70.8/1,000, 3;
> white: 58.4/1,000, 2.3; Cuban: 53.2/1,000, 1.5; Puerto
> Rican: 68.4/1,000,
> 2.9; Mexican: 118.9/1,000, 3.2; Asian/Pacific Islander:
> 66.6/1,000, 2.7;
> Central/South American: 97.8/1,000, 2.9; American Indian:
> 59.9/1,000, 2.2.
>
> Lynda
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "bob ford" <bobford79 AT yahoo.com>
>
>
> > Lynda, , it isn't that I don't believe the
> gov't is capable in moral
> > terms, gov'ts have no scruples. And, the
> 'people' in our gov't have
> > certainly proved themselved to be unethical to the
> point that I would have
> > no problems believing you if not for two reasons --
> ability and
> > motivation.
> >
> > The numbers of Indians , by the 1960s were too few to
> be much of a
> > threat. What would be the motivation ? Ability, how?
> If the gov't had
> > the ability to "perform" eugenics, other
> than thru abortion, which
> > technology back then did not allow a clear look at the
> fetus; then why was
> > it not used on other subsets of society ?
> >
> > That is what I meant by "unbelieveable". I
> don't find it believeable that
> > we had the 'know-how ; or that, even if we did,
> that our gov't motivations
> > would havem put Indians first in line .
> >
> > You have to have the physical body , for a period of
> time, to do a
> > surgical sterilization. It would have been slower and
> more expensive back
> > then. The time and money required would have been too
> great and there
> > should have been much documentation, even if done
> surreptiously by people
> > involved and later released against the wishes of the
> gov't.
> >
> > I was surprised to read about the higher birth rates
> of Indian women.
> > But, they didn't mention infant mortality rates
> among those same women?
> > I'm not a moralist, I but can empathize with your
> personal feelings about
> > what happended to your people. As I said before, the
> reason that I
> > believe in the Indian fight against the gov't , as
> opposed to other
> > groups, has nothing to do with morals. We have a
> Constitution that
> > demands that we abide by our treaties. The gov't
> made treaties with
> > Indians. To me, the Constitution has to be obeyed.
> >
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> > --- On Thu, 12/4/08, Lynda <lurine AT softcom.net>
> wrote:
> >
> >> From: Lynda <lurine AT softcom.net>
> >> Subject: Re: [Homestead] Who attacked whom? (was:
> It's almost over)
> >> To: bobford79 AT yahoo.com,
> homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
> >> Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 9:37 PM
> >> Bob, do you really expect the white guys who were
> >> responsible to accept the real numbers. Each and
> every
> >> report says they only checked with 4 of the 12
> health
> >> services. They only came up with a small number.
> Gee, why
> >> am I surprised.
> >>
> >> And, no, I don't know that alcohol effects
> birthrates
> >> in this instance because I have yet to see alcohol
> do a
> >> hysterectomy or a visectomy. If you can find me
> any data
> >> where that happens, I'd be more than willing
> to
> >> apologize and accept that I might be wrong.
> >>
> >> Now, for someone who doesn't trust the
> government at
> >> all. Someone who is usually quite happy, even
> eager, to
> >> jump on the conspiracy bandwagons for a whole raft
> of
> >> things, why is it that you are now a card carrying
> >> government supporter?
> >>
> >> Do you honestly think the government is going to
> release
> >> the real numbers?
> >>
> >> I'll admit that the Indian is generally the
> >> Indian's worst enemy. There is a whole
> culture of
> >> don't complain and accept with silence.
> Complaining is
> >> seen as whining. There is no way you'll ever
> see a
> >> Jesse Jackson Jr. or Sharpton from any rez. Even
> the
> >> protests in Washington and Sac were done rather
> quietly and
> >> with dignity.
> >>
> >> The IHS has systematically destroyed as many
> records as
> >> possible. Most tubal ligations were listed as
> DNCs.
> >> Hysterectomies were frequently listed as
> appendectomies.
> >> I worked on some of this. Believe me, the 40%
> (female) and
> >> 10% (male) are probably low! The only way to get
> true
> >> numbers would be to find each and every female who
> was seen
> >> at any of the IHS and IHS satellite offices for a
> 20 year
> >> period. Records have conveniently disappeared
> "oh,
> >> they are in storage." "Oh, sorry, the
> roof leaked
> >> and they were destroyed." "Oh, we
> changed systems
> >> and I can't find the records that belong with
> the old
> >> numbering system." "Oh, we only keep
> records
> >> until they they are 3 years past 21."
> >>
> >> Please do tell why you would have a need to do a
> >> hysterectomy on a TWELVE YEAR OLD!
> >>
> >> Most of these women were scared spitless of
> reprisals by
> >> the government and wouldn't come forward.
> Many had been
> >> threatened with having their children removed from
> their
> >> homes. Many had their children taken away from
> them. It
> >> was routine for them to be threatened (Head Start,
> CPS,
> >> p.s.) and to then have no recourse. You seem to
> forget that
> >> until the 1930s, an Indian had no rights in court.
> The
> >> government could and did do whatever they pleased.
> Everyone
> >> knew what the government had done to the Osage.
> No one else
> >> wanted a government conservator who was just as
> likely to
> >> murder you as they were to be an actual
> conservator.
> >>
> >> Your government has a LONG history of eugenics
> against the
> >> People!
> >>
> >> Lynda
> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "bob
> ford"
> >> <bobford79 AT yahoo.com>
> >>
> >>
> >> > I just read the first two paragraphs and will
> read the
> >> rest later. So far, it says some Indians have
> accused the
> >> gov't of sterilizing up to 25% (which I still
> find
> >> unbelieveable). I'l finish later but think
> you might be
> >> exaggerating. You know as well as I do, that
> alcohol has
> >> something to do with the birthrate. It might not
> be
> >> politically correct to say, but alcohol affects
> Indians
> >> differently than others. I will read further.
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --- On Thu, 12/4/08, Lynda
> <lurine AT softcom.net>
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> From: Lynda <lurine AT softcom.net>
> >> >> Subject: Re: [Homestead] Who attacked
> whom? (was:
> >> It's almost over)
> >> >> To: homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
> >> >> Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 4:47 PM
> >> >> Ah, Bob. I would suggest you do some
> reading
> >> about history.
> >> >> The government
> >> >> instituted a program in the 60s and 70s
> inwhich
> >> they
> >> >> sterilized over 40% of
> >> >> the Indians who were of child bearing
> age.
> >> >>
> >> >> Wouldn't think of giving you any
> newspaper
> >> article but
> >> >> I would refer you to
> >> >> Congressional records! The GAO report.
> The
> >> American
> >> >> Indian Policy Review
> >> >> Commission's Report on Indian Health.
> Public
> >> Health
> >> >> Aspects of
> >> >> Contraceptive Serilization. American
> Indian Women
> >> and IHS
> >> >> Sterlization
> >> >> Practices. Killing Our Future:
> Sterlization and
> >> >> Experiments. And Then
> >> >> There Were None: Is Federal Policy
> Endangering
> >> the
> >> >> American Indian Species.
> >> >> Also, numerous articles in well respected
> journals
> >> such as
> >> >> the American
> >> >> Journal of Public Health and even the
> U.S. Dept.
> >> of HEW has
> >> >> many reports on
> >> >> this.
> >> >>
> >> >> Here's one article just to get you
> started
> >> >>
> >>
> http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/american_indian_quarterly/v024/24.3lawrence.html
> >> >>
> >> >> Lynda
> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From:
> "bob
> >> ford" <bobford79 AT yahoo.com>
> >> >> To: "Lynda"
> <lurine AT softcom.net>;
> >> >> <homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> >> >> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 3:30 PM
> >> >> Subject: Re: [Homestead] Who attacked
> whom? (was:
> >> It's
> >> >> almost over)
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> > Now, I have completely agreed with
> your
> >> greviances, as
> >> >> an Indian, and said
> >> >> > that the gov't is required to
> make things
> >> right ,
> >> >> because of the
> >> >> > Constitution. Why do you have to
> throw in
> >> something
> >> >> like sterilizing 40%
> >> >> > of the modern Indians, That has not
> >> happened.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > The gov't did have a hand in
> killing off
> >> many
> >> >> (most) Indians, and
> >> >> > stealing your land through broken
> treaties.
> >> But,
> >> >> I'm going to need more
> >> >> > than a left-wing newspaper article
> to believe
> >> that we
> >> >> (the gov't)
> >> >> > sterilized 40% of the few of you
> that were
> >> left. If
> >> >> they did that
> >> >> > successfully, why did they not do it
> to
> >> >> "blacks" when they were in the
> >> >> > unfavorable column? It wasn't
> >> >> possible.............
> >> >> >
> >> >> > p.s. My cherokee friend was not at
> boarding
> >> school.
> >> >> His father was a cop.
> >> >> > My friend played all sports, was in
> the
> >> normal clubs,
> >> >> did all of the
> >> >> > normal stuff. He was proud of his
> Cherokee
> >> heritage,
> >> >> but he was just one
> >> >> > of the guys. Maybe, today, he looks
> at it
> >> >> differently, I don't know.
> >> >> > 'haven't talked to him in
> >> >>
> decades.....................................
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > --- On Thu, 12/4/08, Lynda
> >> <lurine AT softcom.net>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> From: Lynda
> <lurine AT softcom.net>
> >> >> >> Subject: Re: [Homestead] Who
> attacked
> >> whom? (was:
> >> >> It's almost over)
> >> >> >> To: bobford79 AT yahoo.com,
> >> >> homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
> >> >> >> Date: Thursday, December 4,
> 2008, 4:21 PM
> >> >> >> We have never been of the whine
> and
> >> snivel type
> >> >> <g>
> >> >> >> We've begun using the
> courts, the
> >> Constitution
> >> >> AND the
> >> >> >> UN.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> And, yup, I'll bet your
> friend did
> >> consider
> >> >> himself
> >> >> >> "white" because that
> was a way
> >> to
> >> >> survive. AND,
> >> >> >> also a wanted result from the
> boarding
> >> schools.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> The boarding schools didn't
> take with
> >> us so
> >> >> well. In
> >> >> >> fact, just made most of my aunts
> and
> >> uncles and
> >> >> cousins,
> >> >> >> etc. more anti-white,
> anti-christian. Of
> >> course,
> >> >> part of it
> >> >> >> might have to do with those nice
> >> christian folks
> >> >> killing my
> >> >> >> uncle.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Nope, we aren't multiplying
> like
> >> other folks.
> >> >> The
> >> >> >> government went out of their way
> to be
> >> sure the
> >> >> red folks
> >> >> >> couldn't multiple. When you
> >> sterilize over
> >> >> 40% of any
> >> >> >> given ethnic population you
> kind of put
> >> a crimp
> >> >> in their
> >> >> >> reproductive activies. Guess
> they were
> >> scared
> >> >> that we
> >> >> >> viewed them all as more
> potential
> >> Custards and
> >> >> might invoke
> >> >> >> more Ghost Dances <g>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Lynda
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> P.S. Don't anyone going
> assigning
> >> tone to
> >> >> these
> >> >> >> e-mails. I'm just sharing
> facts and
> >> writing
> >> >> as I would
> >> >> >> speak if we were all sitting
> around the
> >> woodstove
> >> >> sharing
> >> >> >> some pasta e figoli (made using
> my smoked
> >> turkey
> >> >> broth) with
> >> >> >> hot garlic bread (dinner tonight
> >> <g>)
> >> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
> >> "bob
> >> >> ford"
> >> >> >> <bobford79 AT yahoo.com>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > The problem with what you
> wrote
> >> Lynda is that
> >> >> there
> >> >> >> are not enough of you left to
> get away
> >> with being
> >> >> as
> >> >> >> antagonistic as the
> "Black" or
> >> >> "brown"
> >> >> >> "folks" -- and , it is
> starting
> >> to wear
> >> >> thin and
> >> >> >> not work as well for them, also.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Your people have not
> multiplied in
> >> sufficient
> >> >> numbers
> >> >> >> as did the black and brown
> people (I
> >> guess you are
> >> >> old
> >> >> >> school and consider your self
> >> "Red").
> >> >> The good
> >> >> >> full blood Cherokee friend I had
> growing
> >> up
> >> >> considered
> >> >> >> himself "white".
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > The Treaties and the
> Constitution
> >> really is
> >> >> your ace
> >> >> >> in the hole
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> _______________________________________________
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> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
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> >
>
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