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[WILLIAM <billymegab AT yahoo.com>]

Bev,
   
  Doesn't the neighbor take responsibility for the damage his dog does??  
Seems to me that dog needs to be tied up or meet the local dog control  (or 
feel a little buckshot!)
  William 

Bevanron <erthnsky AT bellsouth.net> wrote:
  

Gene GeRue wrote:

> Could you put the second fence on the outside of the tall fence?

No.

When
> you say "permanent" do you mean, like, stone walls? Can the bed be 
> moved? What is most permanent, the tall fence or the beds?

Both are permanent. The raised beds are made from metal siding and are
2 feet tall. The closest raised bed, the problem area, is 16x4.

> 
> How much total square footage do you have inside the tall fence for 
> garden space?

It is 100 x 70.
I originally had a conventional row garden, then went to raised beds on
the ground, then used lumber to construct wooden sided raised beds, and
now I have the permanent metal sided DEEP raised beds. I love them.
They have wire in the bottom, then about 8-10 inches of rocks, then
decaying sticks and wood, then waste hay and compost on the top. All
have the wire and rocks, some only have waste hay with no wood and some
are not top dressed with composted soil (yet).

> 
> The shorter fence does not have to be plumb. If you build it leaning
> toward the tall fence, the open area above is restricted. This would
> also discourage pullets from flying out.

I actually thought of this, and if I end up buying 6 foot fencing like
you suggest, I will most like make the moat 4 feet wide at the ground
and lean the fence in towards the 8 ft fence.


You could also pound short
> pieces of rebar into the ground opposite the tall fence posts, slip 
> three-quarter PVC pipe over that and make an arch to the tall fence,
> putting the PVC onto long spikes pounded into the posts, then just 
> lay poultry mesh over that and wire it to the PVC to keep it in 
> place. No hens flying out; no raptors flying in.

I am currently using this technique over the dog kennel where I have the
pullets right now.

> 
> That will make for a very clean moat unless it is covered with kudzu.
> 
Yes, I know. It will be bare in no time. I hope to allow the chickens
out to free range several times a week as I can. We have a renting
neighbor's unleashed dog to contend with. Last year, that dog killed 4
of my geese, 8 of my ducks, and various assorted chickens, so I have to
now limit my birds freedom to keep them alive.


> Is this your ideal flock size? Can you expand the garden in any 
> direction? Gardens and moats can be of any configuration.

No, that's almost double my "ideal". My ideal flock size is about 15-20
hens. That provides enough eggs for us and enough to sell to pay for
any feed or replacement layers if need be. After Hobo's bird killing
rampage, I was down to 8 chickens, so I bought 25 pullets this Spring to
build the flock back up. I bought 25 so that I could end up with 12 or
so-expecting losses for various reasons, but so far, I haven't lost a
chicken this year. It is also noteworthy that in the years I have been
here, I have never had a hen go broody and stay broody long enough to
raise her own chicks until this year. I did not count on that, but it
is happening, so that adds to the flock population, too. (BTW, if I have
observed correctly, those eggs should hatch tomorrow or the next day)

As for garden expansion, yes, I could actually expand it. In fact, we
shortened it this year and now the blueberries, some apple trees and my
asparagus bed are outside of the fence. It used to be 125x70, so we cut
off 25 feet.

But, back to the moat thing....one problem I have had in the past with
the perimeter fence is having honeysuckle and various vines grow up onto
the fence, especially on the south side (long 100 foot section), and I
think the chickens will stay busy clearing that. Thankfully,
honeysuckle is not kudzu, but there are enough vines to keep the girls
busier than you might think.


> 
> Before we continue wrestling with this design dilemma, let everyone 
> contemplate Bev's typical 
> do-with-what-you-have-as-you-need-it-and-can-afford-it approach. Not
> typical only to her but to most. When we start homesteading we don't
> know how many tomatoes, trees, birds, lambs or horses we will 
> ultimately have.

Not only that, but things change over time. Infrastructure wears out,
kids leave home, diets change, customer base increases, etc. Things
change, plans change, so flexibility within a budget also has to change.
I wouldn't be building a new chicken coop and run had we not been hit by
a tornado in 2002 (that weakened my existing coop when a tree fell on
it) and if my criminal renter neighbor would keep his freakin' dog on a
leash, I could continue to free range and all would be well.


But, if space allows, each garden, pen or pasture
> should be designed for flexibility of expansion or contraction. Hell
> of a lot easier to it right than to do it over and sure as hell 
> better to not have to compromise. So make a master plan and commit it
> to paper. Easy to erase and redraw. Hard to move raised beds, 
> buildings or stone walls.

Good advice to the masses, but even the best laid plans are often
thwarted by the unforeseen, whether that means more broody hens than you
expected, a better survival rate than you expected, or a new neighbor's
free ranging dog.

Bev



-- 
erthnsky AT bellsouth.net BevanRon of EarthNSky Farm NW Georgia USDA Zone 7
34.498N 85.076W

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WILLIAM wrote:
> Bev,
> 
> Doesn't the neighbor take responsibility for the damage his dog 
> does??  Seems to me that dog needs to be tied up or meet the local 
> dog control  (or feel a little buckshot!) William
> 
> 

Well, yes and no.
We have complained to the owner, as have other neighbors, and while he
protested, he did keep Hobo (a large German Shepherd) tied up for a
while last summer after he killed my ducks and turkeys.  Jeff fully
admits that hisdog kills my animals, and even brought a wounded duck up
to the house last summer so that I could try to save it.  I had to put
her down.
More than once, I have 'rescued' Hobo after he broke his chain and got
tangled up in a bamboo grove adjacent to my property.  He's a sweet dog
to people, but deadly to my animals.  I am a dog lover and don't want to
shoot Hobo, but we are fast approaching that limit.  Animal control came
out and got Hobo once, but Jeff got him back.  Here, while there is a
leash law, it is not enforced outside of the city limits.
My dogs are house dogs and go outside one at a time for 5 or 10 minutes
to go to the bathroom.  I also let them out while I am out there doing
chores and I play with them outside.  It would be just my luck to call
animal control and have them come out and they would get my own dogs
instead of Hobo, OR that if I called AC again, that Jeff would decide to
take revenge on my dogs in some way.
Jeff's philosophy is that he moved "to the country" so that he could let
his dogs run and be free and while he did keep him chained up for a
while, last fall he started letting Hobo off the chain on the weekends
when animal control doesn't work.  That has now been extended to all the
time, so we are back to square one-in the same situation as last summer
as far as Hobo is concerned.  In Jeff's defense, he actually gave me
permission to shoot Hobo if I caught him killing anything, but since he
does it in the middle of the night and rarely in the daytime, it is hard
to catch him in the act.  Usually, Hobo carries his trophies home with
him and Jeff promptly disposes of the evidence, whether it is a opossum,
a cat, a chicken, or whatever. (It always smells like death down there)
You know this dog is tenacious when I tell you he took on 4 geese and
won.  That's no small feat, so it makes me fear for my own dogs.  Jeff
did pay for the turkeys, and offered to pay for the wounded duck (that
was the first incident in this long string of things), but has since
begun to lay low as Hobo kills more stuff.  I now have a setup to hold
Hobo if I catch him on the property.  I told Jeff that if Hobo comes
back up here, I will call animal control and have him picked up.  Oh,
and they charge ME $25 for coming out to pick up an animal, even feral
cats.  So, as you can see, I am about ready to put some lead into the
dog and practice SSS. I am at my wit's end with this situation.  SSS
would be a lot easier in the long run, as well as cheaper. While our
relationship with Jeff is cordial and civil at present, I must say that
I am a bit afraid of him.  He has a long criminal record and has spent
the better part of his life in prison.  I don't want any trouble, I just
want to be able to raise my animals in peace.  Jeff has always been
polite, but I don't trust him.  According to the Department of
Corrections website, he's now been out of prison longer than he has in
his entire life, so I keep hoping (horrible of me, I know) that he will
screw up and end up in prison again so my problem will go away.  I just
wish they would move or go away.

Bev

-- 
erthnsky AT bellsouth.net  BevanRon of EarthNSky Farm      NW Georgia USDA Zone 7
34.498N 85.076W