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  • From: grady <grady AT ibiblio.org>
  • To: RTP-area local music and culture <ch-scene AT lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: On Durham and identity
  • Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 09:15:58 -0400

You're absolutely right that women seem to be able to exercise more agency in Durham than in Chapel Hill/Carrboro. I would hesitate to try to strap your emasculation argument to it, but that's primarily because I dropped out of grad school because I was tired of that level of theoretical froo-fraw. If you're not tired of that, then I suppose that's your call.

I would probably prefer to argue that it doesn't & shouldn't require, in the 21st century, the economic "emasculation" of a city in order for women to assume a cultural leadership role. I think I'd prefer to make the argument in favor of role models & a support structure--Ladyslipper supports one kind of wimmins music scene, giving Durham a national reputation as women- and queer-friendly (which it is, and not due to Ladyslipper per se), which in turn acts as a factor when Kaia & Tammy Rae Carland decide to move to Durham & start Mr. Lady, though it should be pointed out that I saw Kaia more at the Lizard & Snake, both in Team Dresch & solo, before they moved here, than I saw her in Durham, *and* that Tammy Rae wound up teaching at UNC, not Duke, BUT they chose to live & run the label in Durham . . .

So is that cheap housing again, or my clean slate argument again, or is it your argument that Durham somehow allows women to do what they want? Because I'd strongly argue that the women you mention were gonna do what they want no matter where they lived, and it didn't require some artificially uneven playing field to make that happen. If they chose Durham because rent was cheap, or because there's this wide-open feeling about it, or because there were role models/predecessors such as Ladyslipper & Mr. Lady, then I guess I'd want to argue that that just makes them rational actors.

And so I suppose what I'm saying is that if that's part of your angle, then a more interesting question might be: why are most of the venues in Raleigh & Chapel Hill run by dudes? If Durham is only anomalous via its non-fucked-up-ness, then is it anomalous at all?

I've been going to shows in Durham since I moved to the Triangle in 1992, and the funny thing about Durham is that while there are never very *many* places to play, there's always somewhere to play. My vague recollection goes kind of like this: Under The Street->Coffeehouse->Captured Live->umm, Coffeehouse again->The Basement->yes, Coffeehouse again->Ooh La Latte->Coffeehouse->305 South/Joe & Jo's->Coffeehouse->Chaz's->Broad Street->BCHQ->Coffeehouse, if'n they start booking more than 1 show every 2 weeks.

Re: Coffeehouse "almost going under" and the Union bailout or whatever: The Duke Coffeehouse is a member of the Duke University Union. Sometimes it winds up with management that is more or less effective than other times, and sometimes Union management or staff higher-ups gotta do some nudging back onto the right track. This is sort of to be expected, particularly for a student-run venue where the students have as much leeway as they do there. I sorta feel like if they aren't sinking too much money into booking shows that aren't gonna make it back, then they aren't living up to their full potential, but maybe that's just me.

Oh, and since this can't be repeated enough times: Joe & Jo's closed/was sold due to a big change in Joanne's personal life, not due to economic hardship.

Trying to hit other points piecemeal: Carrboro living ain't cheap. If one were so inclined, back before the last of them sold, one could buy a 1/4-acre vacant lot in Carrboro for around $130,000.

I don't think people in Durham care about whether people from other towns go to shows there. Certainly recent iterations of Coffeehouse management have done a fairly ass-poor job of promoting shows outside of a small chunk of East Campus/9th Street. Before Joe & Jo's closed it was a constant struggle for me to get word about shows there more than a day or so in advance. James & Michelle are also pretty slack in this regard. If you can put your finger on some inherent Durham thing that makes this true, then go for it. I've always wondered.

If you want to talk about the reasons why people might drive from Durham to Chapel Hill or Raleigh to see a show, then I think they're probably twofold:

1) people in Durham really like their friends' bands, and are willing to drive to see them play.
2) Frank Heath pretty much has right of first refusal to a huge percentage of touring shows that people might want to see, and he puts them in the Cradle first, [lately] Local 506 second, and various other venues (none in Durham, but the occasional seated show at the Carolina) third.

It's a safe bet that for the foreseeable future, peeps won't be driving to Raleigh to see shows nearly as often.

I guess what I'm saying in this regard is that people may be driving from Durham to Chapel Hill more than vice-versa, but it's because they're going to see their friends' bands, or to see out-of-town bands. The secret here is that the average Chapel Hill band, by itself, doesn't draw all that well in Chapel Hill *or* in Durham. Chapel Hill's music venues are not, by and large, being maintained as viable businesses due to the strength of the local music scene. They're making money on touring bands, or on non-rock events.

So people from Durham can feel bad, if they want to, if they throw a big show of all local bands & nobody from Chapel Hill shows up. But if they threw the same show in Chapel Hill, not that many more people would show up either.

And as for Raleigh, well, nobody drives I-40 at night, in either direction.

You talk about the same-100-people phenomenon; cut that number to 30 and you've described the average Chapel Hill locals-only show.

You are completely correct that a lot of Durham bands are [justifiably] proud of being from Durham. I think that as much as anything, it's sort of a historical echo from the time when Chapel Hill was nationally known as the indie-rock capital of the world [for about five minutes]. Bands from Durham who tried to leave the city limits had to decide whether & how often they wanted to have the conversation that began with "we're from Durham," veered into NC geography, and ended with "fuckit, we're from Chapel Hill."

Like I may have said before, I'd hesitate before reading too much into that. There is certainly an "underdog" spirit, to the extent that such a spirit is (a) fun, (b) kinda ironic, and (c) constructive. With the exception of a couple of possible sour-grapes-ers, I'd say that in my experience, the vast majority of Durham bands say it with pride, but without a lot of negative baggage. It's underdoggy because it's *fun* to be underdoggy, not traumatic.

Getting to your core question, of why Durham feels more supportive, or whatever else: read the article in the Indy about Kings. Talk to DJ Stevo at WKNC. You can't really make an argument about the music community in Durham being more supportive than the community in Raleigh. Is it a little weird that there isn't more overlap between the two? Maybe, but then again maybe not. 25-30 minutes is a long time to spend in the car at 1:00 a.m.

As for Chapel Hill, well, I think we've written a book on a.m.c-h over the past few years about "the kids" and whether or not they're going to shows more or less than they used to, and etc. I think Will makes a good point when he talks about the weight of history in Chapel Hill being a hard thing to struggle against. Durham, despite being a far more historic city in toto, doesn't really keep its rocknroll artifacts around in plain sight.

I suppose I'd suggest that the people who'd be most interesting to talk to are those people who were living in/near Chapel Hill in the 90s who have since moved to Durham, particularly those (Anne Gomez!) who have been in bands in both Durham and Chapel Hill since the late 80s.

And I suppose I would also suggest that there is something inherently a lot more fun/exciting about DIY than there is about calling up Glenn Boothe 18 times to try to get a show at Local 506, then shlepping all your gear over there & playing a show to a roomful of people who spend all the time standing in the back talking, regardless of whether you're from Durham or from Chapel Hill. So if the only kinds of shows in Durham are DIY shows, more or less, then yeah, I guess people are going to be more excited.

So I suppose what I'm finally getting at is that I think Durham is sort of benefitting from this long slow aggregation (that I spoke of in my other email) of culture-minded people, some of whom moved there from out of town & were full of energy & excitement about starting something new, and some of whom moved there from Chapel Hill or Raleigh because they were tired of renting crappy houses & going to smoky late-night shows & were ready to settle down a little. And when those two groups collided with the other X-factors we've talked about (cheap real estate being one of them), what you wound up with was a lot of fun, slack pick-up bands who were as likely to play a mid-evening show at Joe & Jo's because (a) they could get to bed before 3:00 a.m. and (b) they could drag their friends out & they'd be able to eat & drink & talk in relative comfort.

And since so many of these people were great musicians who'd been in bands for years, even their slack pick-up bands (like, say, America's Next Top Models) were hella fun.

I think Durham would be a lot more boring & a lot less vibrant if there were actual rockclubs there, with smoking, and late start times, and actual business people worried about making rent solely on the basis of rock music & beer, and all the things that I hate about rockclubs. I hope that we learn at some point that Durham has evolved *beyond* that, rather than being at some early-evolutionary stage *before* that.

If there were *true* barriers in the way of Durham indie rock--if the cops were cracking skulls outside of shows, a la LA in the early 80s, or if they were busting every single house show with a huge show of force, a la Greenville NC circa right-about-fucking-now--then would everybody in Durham be as breathlessly excited as they are right now? Probably not. Would they pull together to make something happen anyway? That's a good question. Durham? Bendy?

betsyshane AT gmail.com wrote:
Grady--

I guess beyond cheap housing (I've heard arguments that carrboro is
cheap enough, or comperably cheap and I don't really know the orange
county housing market) I wonder about the newer aspects of the "scene"
developed...I don't really know who was here before this new wave of
fairly young bands came in and commandeered the identity, but there
seems to be a gung ho "attitude" of Durham, sort of invested in
separationist politics, but more in the sense of there was no place
for us so we've made a place for ourselves. Whether or not that's
true is debatable (and in my work has been widely debated). When I
moved here in 2003, I was going to CH weekly because there was
"nothing to do" in Durham. Whether or not that was true, there was
nothing visible, barely any venues for music, and when I went out,
people seemed pretty down on Durham (the favorite joke being about
Welcome to Durham / getting shot / getting robbed) The other thing
I've thought about in regards to politics is the fact that Durham is
sort of the "poor" city....and the fact that people sort of bricolage
the poverty and the lovable loser mentality of the town, making their
own projects into the little engine that could...

Plus, Durham seems to have many more female movers and shakers, at
least visibly-- Mel thomas owns 307 Knox and does Troika, Michelle
Lee's Untidy Museum/Electric Blender are the real reason places like
ooh la latte and 305 south came to be, 3 of the 6 members of the board
of BCHQ are ladies...going back there was ladyslipper and Mr. lady.
Is this just coincidence? Is Durham as a town just woman friendlier?
I've made the argument that Durham is a "feminized" or "emasculated"
space because it has been robbed of its agency, lost its earning power
and is now basically being parceled off to the highest bidder.

I would argue, however, that the number of people willing to travel to
Durham for events is not nearly as high as people likely to go out to
Chapel Hill/Carrboro/Raleigh for events. As much as rent prices play
a role, you can't deny that Broad St cafe has gone under in many
incarnations, Joe & Jo's (arguably the birthplace of this new wave of
Durham collectives) went down, and without an intervention by the
DUU, The Coffeehouse would've folded too. Are people really coming
out to Durham? I never intended to say it was a "hot scene" but
people are trying to make something happen here and I wonder both how
it looks from the outside to musicians and listeners. I think the
sort of same 100 people phenomena is in full blast here, because it's
the same people at lots of the shows, with the exception maybe of Red
Collar shows.

I guess I have been getting a lot of nebulous responses about the
"spirit" of durham, like Ross's statement
"Chapel Hill/Carrboro seems too evenly
divided between rich people and college students; Raleigh feels more
like Charlotte every day, sadly. People in Durham feel more like
people. "
I suppose that I am trying to put my finger on why it is that people
in Durham feel more like people / the Durham "scene" is so much more
supportive than others / it's "fresher" / it's really DIY / it's so
weird/interesting for people now.

Thanks already for your responses, if you've got any reply to these
(or the questions posed by Joel, thanks man!) that'd be great too.


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