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  • From: fred burlingame <tensorpath AT gmail.com>
  • To: Paul Zellmer <pzellmer AT sc.rr.com>
  • Cc: B-Hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] lock without a key
  • Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 21:39:35 -0500

Paul:

I hear what you both say, but it appears to me, that a big difference exists
between the hebrew and its english translation.

a. When the consumer of the hebrew language hears the word "ha-yil" he
thinks "army" or "tangible property" as potential meanings of "ha-yil" (in
the context of numbers 31:9,14).

b. When the consumer of the english language hears the word "army" he
doesn't think "tangible property" as a potential meaning of "army" or vice
versa (in the context of these two verses).

Biblical hebrew language does not surpass or defer to modern english
language. But the two languages simply become susceptible of but approximate
translation between the two.

regards,

fred burlingame



On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 5:23 PM, Paul Zellmer <pzellmer AT sc.rr.com> wrote:

> Fred,
>
> To echo Dr. Vance's note, had you looked up the TWOT article to which I
> referred you, you would have found exactly this explanation. The word also
> has a number of other idiomatic usages, all tied together with the root
> concept of power.
>
> Paul Zellmer
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:
> b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Donald Vance
> Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 4:31 PM
> To: fred burlingame
> Cc: B-Hebrew
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] lock without a key
>
> Your premise is mistaken. The meanings ARE related. Hayil has the basic
> meaning of "power" in Classical Hebrew. It can be power that derives from
> having an army or the power that derives from having wealth, or the power
> that derives from strength of character.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> Donald R. Vance
> Professor of Biblical Languages and Literature
> Oral Roberts University
> donaldrvance AT mac.com
>
> On Nov 2, 2010, at 2:22 PM, fred burlingame <tensorpath AT gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello Matt:
> >
> > Thanks for your comments.
> >
> > I accept the mainstream translations (nkjv, niv, nasb) of numbers 31:9,14
> as
> > the best possible english translations. I probably would also accept as
> > excellent, any english translation that you or any other reasonable
> person
> > might propose. It doesn't matter which translation we choose. Why?
> >
> > Because the english translation must select one english word for usage in
> > one verse ("goods") and another unrelated and disconnected english word
> > ("army") in the other verse.
> >
> > The hebrew language original however, employs the identical hebrew word
> חיל
> > in both locations. And this hebrew noun obviously, closely resembles
> > and relates to its parent hebrew verb חיל , meaning to twist or dance.
> >
> > The consumer of the hebrew text twice experiences, three related meanings
> of
> > one hebrew word חיל . The consumer of the hebrew text further observes a
> > connexity between verses 9 and 14, due to repetitive usage of the word.
> >
> > The consumer of the english text however, sees only independence, where
> the
> > hebrew reader instead observes relationship and pregnancy of meaning.
> >
> > The chronic repetition of this circumstance across the masoretic text and
> > with other hebrew words, effectively locks the text to translation. Yes,
> > translation occurs frequently from the hebrew. But the hebrew original
> > resembles other language translation only as apples mirror oranges.
> >
> > regards,
> >
> > fred burlingame
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 9:15 AM, pastormattfbcrankin <
> > pastormattfbcrankin AT gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Hello Fred,
> >>
> >> What exactly is the "richness of these connections" that you are
> referring
> >> to here? How is it that the Hebrew reader has a completely different
> >> understanding that the English or Greek reader? I'm afraid I don't
> follow,
> >> please enlighten me. Futhermore, how would you translate these verses
> that
> >> would differ so greatly from how it is currently translated?
> >>
> >> My Hebrew prof in college once said, "Every translation is a betrayal of
> >> the text." This is true to a degree, but that being said it doesn't
> mean
> >> that the language is locked i.e. indecipherable into another language.
> We
> >> will lose certain nuances, but I suspect you are trying to say that we
> lose
> >> far more than that.
> >>
> >> Warmest Regards,
> >>
> >> -Matt Williams
> >>
> >>
> >> On Nov 1, 2010, at 9:28 PM, fred burlingame wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hello Paul:
> >>>
> >>> I agree with your comments.
> >>>
> >>> I would observe however, that in this particular case, we have:
> >>>
> >>> a. a parent hebrew verb with a meaning to bore or pierce;
> >>>
> >>> b. a child hebrew noun with two alternate meanings of wealth/goods and
> >> army;
> >>>
> >>> c. and such two noun definitions used in two verses of close physical
> and
> >>> subject matter proximity.
> >>>
> >>> The richness of these connections gives the hebrew reading consumer of
> >> the
> >>> verses an entirely different understanding, than the disconnected
> english
> >>> words reveal to the english reading consumer.
> >>>
> >>> Much of the hebrew meaning survives translation, not. Hence, the hebrew
> >>> language appears locked to english or greek or any other language
> >>> translation.
> >>>
> >>> regards,
> >>>
> >>> fred burlingame
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 8:04 PM, Paul Zellmer <pzellmer AT sc.rr.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Fred,
> >>>>
> >>>> The Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (TWOT) has a good
> article
> >>>> explaining the relationships of the various usages of the word.
> >> Basically,
> >>>> both of the cases here would be considered idiomatic in the field of
> >>>> translation. When translating idioms, one needs to almost always find
> >> the
> >>>> underlying meaning behind the idiom as opposed to the actual words
> used
> >> and
> >>>> translate that concept. This is because a direct, literal translation
> >> of
> >>>> the idiom from one language to another yields either zero meaning or
> >>>> incorrect meaning.
> >>>>
> >>>> This is not just true in translating Hebrew to English--it is the case
> >> when
> >>>> you go from any language to another. It is especially true if the
> >> languages
> >>>> are not closely related.
> >>>>
> >>>> Paul Zellmer
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:
> >>>> b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of fred burlingame
> >>>> Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 5:06 PM
> >>>> To: B-Hebrew
> >>>> Subject: [b-hebrew] lock without a key
> >>>>
> >>>> Hello all:
> >>>>
> >>>> a little arithmetic.
> >>>>
> >>>> 1 = 2; or 2 = 2
> >>>>
> >>>> Biblical hebrew ("BH") language enjoys a unique characteristic. The
> >>>> language
> >>>> frequently employs a single word, twice or more, in physical
> proximity.
> >>>> The single word however, denotes a different meaning in each location.
> >>>>
> >>>> Translations capture the different meanings of the single word, but
> lose
> >>>> the
> >>>> connexity of the verses, and the depth of the single hebrew word in
> the
> >>>> process. Witness: חיל :
> >>>>
> >>>> וישבו בני ישראל נשי מדין ואת טפם ואת כל בהמתם ואת כל מקנהם ואת כל חילם
> >> בזזו
> >>>>
> >>>> numbers 31:9
> >>>>
> >>>> ויקצף משה על פקודי החיל שרי האלפים ושרי המאות הבאים מצבא המלחמה
> >>>>
> >>>> numbers 31:14
> >>>>
> >>>> And so, the question arises. Does BH contained a lock that prevents
> >>>> translation?
> >>>>
> >>>> regards,
> >>>>
> >>>> fred burlingame
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> b-hebrew mailing list
> >>>> b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> >>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> b-hebrew mailing list
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> >>
> >>
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