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  • From: Kevin Riley <klriley AT alphalink.com.au>
  • Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] lock without a key
  • Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2010 15:41:43 +1100

Reading serious English literature I do not draw together words that have nothing in common except spelling. Why should anyone do so in Hebrew? Do you have any evidence that they did or do do so? Are you sure that the ancient Hebrews had the same view of Scriptures that you do, or is that something you simply assume? It seems there are a lot of unstated assumptions/beliefs behind your statements. Maybe that is why some of us are unconvinced. Would your POV still work as well if ancient Hebrews did not view the Scriptures as inerrant, infallible and all the other things some today believe? Would a Hebrew speaking unbeliever have seen what you see? If not, is it the language that leads to your conclusion or how you use it?

Kevin Riley

On 3/11/2010 2:48 PM, fred burlingame wrote:
Hello Kevin:
Thanks for your comments.
You are correct. I can only speak for myself. But by the same token, I would assume that most people don't pick up a copy of the masoretic text for a little light and diversionary reading ... similar, say, to reading the local newspaper or watching television.
I would also assume that most people who take the time to read this ancient hebrew text, do so with care and concentration, both now .... and then. That being said, it seems reasonable to propose that when the consumer of the masoretic text experiences a single hebrew word used twice in close proximity, in different contexts, ... that fact would provoke the consumer to consider the varied meanings of the word ... in both contexts.
Everyone can see the monumental differences in form between ancient hebrew and a modern english translation. I don't see why the "berlin wall" of resistance suddenly rises up out of the ground when someone suggests big differences in substance between the ancient hebrew and its english translations.

regards,
fred burlingame
On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 9:58 PM, Kevin Riley <klriley AT alphalink.com.au <mailto:klriley AT alphalink.com.au>> wrote:

Are you sure the Hebrew speaker 'thinks' alternative meanings? I
know as an English speaker that alternative meanings that don't
fit the contexts don't get consciously thought of.


On 3/11/2010 1:39 PM, fred burlingame wrote:

Paul:

I hear what you both say, but it appears to me, that a big
difference exists
between the hebrew and its english translation.

a. When the consumer of the hebrew language hears the word
"ha-yil" he
thinks "army" or "tangible property" as potential meanings of
"ha-yil" (in
the context of numbers 31:9,14).

b. When the consumer of the english language hears the word
"army" he
doesn't think "tangible property" as a potential meaning of
"army" or vice
versa (in the context of these two verses).

Biblical hebrew language does not surpass or defer to modern
english
language. But the two languages simply become susceptible of
but approximate
translation between the two.

regards,

fred burlingame



On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 5:23 PM, Paul
Zellmer<pzellmer AT sc.rr.com <mailto:pzellmer AT sc.rr.com>> wrote:

Fred,

To echo Dr. Vance's note, had you looked up the TWOT
article to which I
referred you, you would have found exactly this
explanation. The word also
has a number of other idiomatic usages, all tied together
with the root
concept of power.

Paul Zellmer

-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
<mailto:b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org> [mailto:
b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
<mailto:b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org>] On Behalf Of
Donald Vance
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 4:31 PM
To: fred burlingame
Cc: B-Hebrew
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] lock without a key

Your premise is mistaken. The meanings ARE related. Hayil
has the basic
meaning of "power" in Classical Hebrew. It can be power
that derives from
having an army or the power that derives from having
wealth, or the power
that derives from strength of character.

Sent from my iPhone

Donald R. Vance
Professor of Biblical Languages and Literature
Oral Roberts University
donaldrvance AT mac.com <mailto:donaldrvance AT mac.com>

On Nov 2, 2010, at 2:22 PM, fred
burlingame<tensorpath AT gmail.com
<mailto:tensorpath AT gmail.com>> wrote:

Hello Matt:

Thanks for your comments.

I accept the mainstream translations (nkjv, niv, nasb)
of numbers 31:9,14

as

the best possible english translations. I probably
would also accept as
excellent, any english translation that you or any
other reasonable

person

might propose. It doesn't matter which translation we
choose. Why?

Because the english translation must select one
english word for usage in
one verse ("goods") and another unrelated and
disconnected english word
("army") in the other verse.

The hebrew language original however, employs the
identical hebrew word

חיל

in both locations. And this hebrew noun obviously,
closely resembles
and relates to its parent hebrew verb חיל , meaning to
twist or dance.

The consumer of the hebrew text twice experiences,
three related meanings

of

one hebrew word חיל . The consumer of the hebrew text
further observes a
connexity between verses 9 and 14, due to repetitive
usage of the word.

The consumer of the english text however, sees only
independence, where

the

hebrew reader instead observes relationship and
pregnancy of meaning.

The chronic repetition of this circumstance across the
masoretic text and
with other hebrew words, effectively locks the text to
translation. Yes,
translation occurs frequently from the hebrew. But the
hebrew original
resembles other language translation only as apples
mirror oranges.

regards,

fred burlingame



On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 9:15 AM, pastormattfbcrankin<
pastormattfbcrankin AT gmail.com
<mailto:pastormattfbcrankin AT gmail.com>> wrote:

Hello Fred,

What exactly is the "richness of these
connections" that you are

referring

to here? How is it that the Hebrew reader has a
completely different
understanding that the English or Greek reader?
I'm afraid I don't

follow,

please enlighten me. Futhermore, how would you
translate these verses

that

would differ so greatly from how it is currently
translated?

My Hebrew prof in college once said, "Every
translation is a betrayal of
the text." This is true to a degree, but that
being said it doesn't

mean

that the language is locked i.e. indecipherable
into another language.

We

will lose certain nuances, but I suspect you are
trying to say that we

lose

far more than that.

Warmest Regards,

-Matt Williams


On Nov 1, 2010, at 9:28 PM, fred burlingame wrote:

Hello Paul:

I agree with your comments.

I would observe however, that in this
particular case, we have:

a. a parent hebrew verb with a meaning to bore
or pierce;

b. a child hebrew noun with two alternate
meanings of wealth/goods and

army;

c. and such two noun definitions used in two
verses of close physical

and

subject matter proximity.

The richness of these connections gives the
hebrew reading consumer of

the

verses an entirely different understanding,
than the disconnected

english

words reveal to the english reading consumer.

Much of the hebrew meaning survives
translation, not. Hence, the hebrew
language appears locked to english or greek or
any other language
translation.

regards,

fred burlingame




On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 8:04 PM, Paul
Zellmer<pzellmer AT sc.rr.com
<mailto:pzellmer AT sc.rr.com>>

wrote:

Fred,

The Theological Wordbook of the Old
Testament (TWOT) has a good

article

explaining the relationships of the
various usages of the word.

Basically,

both of the cases here would be considered
idiomatic in the field of
translation. When translating idioms, one
needs to almost always find

the

underlying meaning behind the idiom as
opposed to the actual words

used

and

translate that concept. This is because a
direct, literal translation

of

the idiom from one language to another
yields either zero meaning or
incorrect meaning.

This is not just true in translating
Hebrew to English--it is the case

when

you go from any language to another. It
is especially true if the

languages

are not closely related.

Paul Zellmer

-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
<mailto:b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org>
[mailto:
b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
<mailto:b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org>]
On Behalf Of fred burlingame
Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 5:06 PM
To: B-Hebrew
Subject: [b-hebrew] lock without a key

Hello all:

a little arithmetic.

1 = 2; or 2 = 2

Biblical hebrew ("BH") language enjoys a
unique characteristic. The
language
frequently employs a single word, twice or
more, in physical

proximity.

The single word however, denotes a
different meaning in each location.

Translations capture the different
meanings of the single word, but

lose

the
connexity of the verses, and the depth of
the single hebrew word in

the

process. Witness: חיל :

וישבו בני ישראל נשי מדין ואת טפם ואת כל
בהמתם ואת כל מקנהם ואת כל חילם

בזזו

numbers 31:9

ויקצף משה על פקודי החיל שרי האלפים ושרי
המאות הבאים מצבא המלחמה

numbers 31:14

And so, the question arises. Does BH
contained a lock that prevents
translation?

regards,

fred burlingame
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