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  • From: fred burlingame <tensorpath AT gmail.com>
  • To: Kevin Riley <klriley AT alphalink.com.au>
  • Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] lock without a key
  • Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 11:27:30 -0500

Hello Kevin:

Thanks for your comments.

Do you see two different hebrew words, both spelled חיל , when you read
numbers 31:9,14? The academic community, in my understanding, considers
these three letters arranged in this pattern, and appearing here, to
constitute but a single hebrew word. Perhaps your secular predisposition
prevents you from seeing the obvious, one hebrew word, with two different
meanings.

regards,

fred burlingame

On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 11:41 PM, Kevin Riley <klriley AT alphalink.com.au>wrote:

> Reading serious English literature I do not draw together words that have
> nothing in common except spelling. Why should anyone do so in Hebrew? Do
> you have any evidence that they did or do do so? Are you sure that the
> ancient Hebrews had the same view of Scriptures that you do, or is that
> something you simply assume? It seems there are a lot of unstated
> assumptions/beliefs behind your statements. Maybe that is why some of us
> are unconvinced. Would your POV still work as well if ancient Hebrews did
> not view the Scriptures as inerrant, infallible and all the other things
> some today believe? Would a Hebrew speaking unbeliever have seen what you
> see? If not, is it the language that leads to your conclusion or how you
> use it?
>
> Kevin Riley
>
>
> On 3/11/2010 2:48 PM, fred burlingame wrote:
>
>> Hello Kevin:
>> Thanks for your comments.
>> You are correct. I can only speak for myself. But by the same token, I
>> would assume that most people don't pick up a copy of the masoretic text
>> for
>> a little light and diversionary reading ... similar, say, to reading the
>> local newspaper or watching television.
>> I would also assume that most people who take the time to read this
>> ancient hebrew text, do so with care and concentration, both now .... and
>> then. That being said, it seems reasonable to propose that when the
>> consumer
>> of the masoretic text experiences a single hebrew word used twice in close
>> proximity, in different contexts, ... that fact would provoke the consumer
>> to consider the varied meanings of the word ... in both contexts.
>> Everyone can see the monumental differences in form between ancient hebrew
>> and a modern english translation. I don't see why the "berlin wall" of
>> resistance suddenly rises up out of the ground when someone suggests big
>> differences in substance between the ancient hebrew and its english
>> translations.
>>
>> regards,
>> fred burlingame
>> On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 9:58 PM, Kevin Riley
>> <klriley AT alphalink.com.au<mailto:
>> klriley AT alphalink.com.au>> wrote:
>>
>> Are you sure the Hebrew speaker 'thinks' alternative meanings? I
>> know as an English speaker that alternative meanings that don't
>> fit the contexts don't get consciously thought of.
>>
>>
>> On 3/11/2010 1:39 PM, fred burlingame wrote:
>>
>> Paul:
>>
>> I hear what you both say, but it appears to me, that a big
>> difference exists
>> between the hebrew and its english translation.
>>
>> a. When the consumer of the hebrew language hears the word
>> "ha-yil" he
>> thinks "army" or "tangible property" as potential meanings of
>> "ha-yil" (in
>> the context of numbers 31:9,14).
>>
>> b. When the consumer of the english language hears the word
>> "army" he
>> doesn't think "tangible property" as a potential meaning of
>> "army" or vice
>> versa (in the context of these two verses).
>>
>> Biblical hebrew language does not surpass or defer to modern
>> english
>> language. But the two languages simply become susceptible of
>> but approximate
>> translation between the two.
>>
>> regards,
>>
>> fred burlingame
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 5:23 PM, Paul
>> Zellmer<pzellmer AT sc.rr.com <mailto:pzellmer AT sc.rr.com>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Fred,
>>
>> To echo Dr. Vance's note, had you looked up the TWOT
>> article to which I
>> referred you, you would have found exactly this
>> explanation. The word also
>> has a number of other idiomatic usages, all tied together
>> with the root
>> concept of power.
>>
>> Paul Zellmer
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
>> <mailto:b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org> [mailto:
>> b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
>> <mailto:b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org>] On Behalf Of
>> Donald Vance
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 4:31 PM
>> To: fred burlingame
>> Cc: B-Hebrew
>> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] lock without a key
>>
>> Your premise is mistaken. The meanings ARE related. Hayil
>> has the basic
>> meaning of "power" in Classical Hebrew. It can be power
>> that derives from
>> having an army or the power that derives from having
>> wealth, or the power
>> that derives from strength of character.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> Donald R. Vance
>> Professor of Biblical Languages and Literature
>> Oral Roberts University
>> donaldrvance AT mac.com <mailto:donaldrvance AT mac.com>
>>
>>
>> On Nov 2, 2010, at 2:22 PM, fred
>> burlingame<tensorpath AT gmail.com
>> <mailto:tensorpath AT gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hello Matt:
>>
>> Thanks for your comments.
>>
>> I accept the mainstream translations (nkjv, niv, nasb)
>> of numbers 31:9,14
>>
>> as
>>
>> the best possible english translations. I probably
>> would also accept as
>> excellent, any english translation that you or any
>> other reasonable
>>
>> person
>>
>> might propose. It doesn't matter which translation we
>> choose. Why?
>>
>> Because the english translation must select one
>> english word for usage in
>> one verse ("goods") and another unrelated and
>> disconnected english word
>> ("army") in the other verse.
>>
>> The hebrew language original however, employs the
>> identical hebrew word
>>
>> חיל
>>
>> in both locations. And this hebrew noun obviously,
>> closely resembles
>> and relates to its parent hebrew verb חיל , meaning to
>> twist or dance.
>>
>> The consumer of the hebrew text twice experiences,
>> three related meanings
>>
>> of
>>
>> one hebrew word חיל . The consumer of the hebrew text
>> further observes a
>> connexity between verses 9 and 14, due to repetitive
>> usage of the word.
>>
>> The consumer of the english text however, sees only
>> independence, where
>>
>> the
>>
>> hebrew reader instead observes relationship and
>> pregnancy of meaning.
>>
>> The chronic repetition of this circumstance across the
>> masoretic text and
>> with other hebrew words, effectively locks the text to
>> translation. Yes,
>> translation occurs frequently from the hebrew. But the
>> hebrew original
>> resembles other language translation only as apples
>> mirror oranges.
>>
>> regards,
>>
>> fred burlingame
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 9:15 AM, pastormattfbcrankin<
>> pastormattfbcrankin AT gmail.com
>> <mailto:pastormattfbcrankin AT gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hello Fred,
>>
>> What exactly is the "richness of these
>> connections" that you are
>>
>> referring
>>
>> to here? How is it that the Hebrew reader has a
>> completely different
>> understanding that the English or Greek reader?
>> I'm afraid I don't
>>
>> follow,
>>
>> please enlighten me. Futhermore, how would you
>> translate these verses
>>
>> that
>>
>> would differ so greatly from how it is currently
>> translated?
>>
>> My Hebrew prof in college once said, "Every
>> translation is a betrayal of
>> the text." This is true to a degree, but that
>> being said it doesn't
>>
>> mean
>>
>> that the language is locked i.e. indecipherable
>> into another language.
>>
>> We
>>
>> will lose certain nuances, but I suspect you are
>> trying to say that we
>>
>> lose
>>
>> far more than that.
>>
>> Warmest Regards,
>>
>> -Matt Williams
>>
>>
>> On Nov 1, 2010, at 9:28 PM, fred burlingame wrote:
>>
>> Hello Paul:
>>
>> I agree with your comments.
>>
>> I would observe however, that in this
>> particular case, we have:
>>
>> a. a parent hebrew verb with a meaning to bore
>> or pierce;
>>
>> b. a child hebrew noun with two alternate
>> meanings of wealth/goods and
>>
>> army;
>>
>> c. and such two noun definitions used in two
>> verses of close physical
>>
>> and
>>
>> subject matter proximity.
>>
>> The richness of these connections gives the
>> hebrew reading consumer of
>>
>> the
>>
>> verses an entirely different understanding,
>> than the disconnected
>>
>> english
>>
>> words reveal to the english reading consumer.
>>
>> Much of the hebrew meaning survives
>> translation, not. Hence, the hebrew
>> language appears locked to english or greek or
>> any other language
>> translation.
>>
>> regards,
>>
>> fred burlingame
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 8:04 PM, Paul
>> Zellmer<pzellmer AT sc.rr.com
>> <mailto:pzellmer AT sc.rr.com>>
>>
>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Fred,
>>
>> The Theological Wordbook of the Old
>> Testament (TWOT) has a good
>>
>> article
>>
>> explaining the relationships of the
>> various usages of the word.
>>
>> Basically,
>>
>> both of the cases here would be considered
>> idiomatic in the field of
>> translation. When translating idioms, one
>> needs to almost always find
>>
>> the
>>
>> underlying meaning behind the idiom as
>> opposed to the actual words
>>
>> used
>>
>> and
>>
>> translate that concept. This is because a
>> direct, literal translation
>>
>> of
>>
>> the idiom from one language to another
>> yields either zero meaning or
>> incorrect meaning.
>>
>> This is not just true in translating
>> Hebrew to English--it is the case
>>
>> when
>>
>> you go from any language to another. It
>> is especially true if the
>>
>> languages
>>
>> are not closely related.
>>
>> Paul Zellmer
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
>> <mailto:b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org>
>> [mailto:
>> b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
>> <mailto:b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org>]
>> On Behalf Of fred burlingame
>> Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 5:06 PM
>> To: B-Hebrew
>> Subject: [b-hebrew] lock without a key
>>
>> Hello all:
>>
>> a little arithmetic.
>>
>> 1 = 2; or 2 = 2
>>
>> Biblical hebrew ("BH") language enjoys a
>> unique characteristic. The
>> language
>> frequently employs a single word, twice or
>> more, in physical
>>
>> proximity.
>>
>> The single word however, denotes a
>> different meaning in each location.
>>
>> Translations capture the different
>> meanings of the single word, but
>>
>> lose
>>
>> the
>> connexity of the verses, and the depth of
>> the single hebrew word in
>>
>> the
>>
>> process. Witness: חיל :
>>
>> וישבו בני ישראל נשי מדין ואת טפם ואת כל
>> בהמתם ואת כל מקנהם ואת כל חילם
>>
>> בזזו
>>
>> numbers 31:9
>>
>> ויקצף משה על פקודי החיל שרי האלפים ושרי
>> המאות הבאים מצבא המלחמה
>>
>> numbers 31:14
>>
>> And so, the question arises. Does BH
>> contained a lock that prevents
>> translation?
>>
>> regards,
>>
>> fred burlingame
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