Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Pere Porta <pporta7 AT gmail.com>]

Antonio,

Knowing the structure of a given text can surely help.
But knowing the inner structure of the words themselves.... is essential.

Maybe we might say this:

For the full understanding of a text,

--knowing its general structure: a weight of 15 %
--knowing the inner structure of its words: a weight of 80 %
--others: 5 %

Of course, this is only an approximative approach.

Do you agree?

Pere Porta



2010/10/19 Antonio Garcia <garcia.secretariagh.antonio1 AT gmail.com>

>        Hi everybody:
>
>       Pere Porta don´t know the structure of psalms, and anybody has sent
> on this thread the arxive of psalm 31.
>
>       This is my arxive of the structured psalm 30, that I could seen in a
> book of L. Alonso Schökel.
>
> http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/9674/psalm30cantillationcomp.jpg
>
>       The position of words in this composition could help to understand
> the differents meanings, and not only their ketib.
>
>       I think we need to have the structure of all psalm 31, to opine with
> more knowledge about.
>
>
>
>       Thanks in advance and kind regards. Antonio Garcia Hurtado.
>
>
>
>
>
> 2010/10/19 Pere Porta <pporta7 AT gmail.com>
>
>>   >
>> >
>> >>>> (PP) Patterns consisting of prefix M- and two root letters are always
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>>> 1. Either Hiph'il Participles as in Ez 33:32; Jr 21:4; Pr 17:4...
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>> (KR) What makes you think they are all hiphils? Tradition? Masoretic
>> >>> points?
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >> (PP)
>> >>
>> >> I say that (disregarding of vowel points), a Hebrew word that consists
>> of
>> >> [M + two root consonants] (as it would be the case for M'D in your
>> >> viewpoint) cannot be a Pi'el Participle.
>> >>
>> >
>> > (KR) Why? On what basis is this claim made?
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> > (PP) I have worked for many years (since 1990) to build up a list of as
>> many as possible of Hebrew patterns or structures.
>> My present list consists of about nine thousand (9,000) patterns with, of
>> course, the corresponding explanation.
>>
>> In this sense I have some authority to confirm that the pattern or
>> structure
>> (M + two root consonants) is NEVER a Piel Participle.
>>
>>
>>
>> >   /KR)
>> >> That was one of the threads in my discussion with Randall Buth on the
>> verb
>> >> NGD. In looking at all the occurrences, some look like hophals, some
>> piels,
>> >> some puals, while he claimed all were hiphils.
>> >>
>> >
>> >>
>> > (PP) Unfortunately I did not participate in this discussion.
>>
>> >    .................
>> >>
>> >
>>
>> >    In a more general way: I say that this structure: M + TWO root
>> >> consonants is NEVER a Piel Participle in the practice of the Hebrew
>> >> language.
>> >>
>> >
>> > (KR) How do you know? What data are you using?
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> > (PP) Within the aforementioned list of 9,000 patterns or structures
>> there
>> are eleven patterns (only eleven, 11) consisting of (M + two root
>> consonants).
>> Now, NONE is a Piel Participle.
>> Accepting that my study has been a deep one (so I hope!), it is quite
>> logical to think that indeed NO pattern (M + two root consonants) is a
>> Piel
>> Participle.
>>
>>
>> >    (PP) By the way, Karl, are you creating a list of these words?).
>> >>
>> >
>> > (KR) No, I’n not making a list. First and foremost, when I sit down to
>> read
>> > from Tanakh, I read an unpointed text, so usually I don’t know when I
>> read
>> > it using different points.
>> >
>> > There are a few exceptions, one being Isaiah 30:14 where the text
>> reminds
>> > me of blacksmithing (which I have done) and not of pottery (which I have
>> > studied). But most of the time I don’t know.
>> >
>> >>
>>
>> >     (PP) I think it would be worthwhile to create this list, Karl. I
>> mean:
>> >>>> a list of those words in the Bible that could be pointed in a way
>> other than
>> >>>> the masoretic way. And at a time showing how this different pointing
>>  would
>> >>>> give a meaning or an understanding of the text that is different from
>> that
>> >>>> which has been currently accepted.
>> >>>>
>> >>> I admit that this is a work. yes. But... as you're a lexicographer,
>> why
>> not to do a little more work or effort to get such a list?
>> I think this would result in a QUITE interesting work for the whole of the
>> Bible world (both scholars and -within certain limitations-  also
>> non-scholars).
>> Of course it could become an interesting work to publish...
>>
>>
>> Hearty,
>>
>>
>>
>> >
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>> Pere Porta
>> >>>> (Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain)
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Karl W. Randolph.
>> >
>> >
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>>
>
>
>
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>



-- 
Pere Porta
"Ei nekrói ouk eguéirontai, fágomen kai píomen áurion gar apothnéskomen"
(1Cor 15:32)