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Re: [b-hebrew] Many scholars accept the documentary sources

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  • From: LM Barre <l_barre AT yahoo.com>
  • To: K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>, b-Hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Many scholars accept the documentary sources
  • Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 12:24:42 -0800 (PST)
Demythologize the Hebrew Bible.  You seem to assume that back then there was
a magic universe different from our own.

 
Lloyd Barré
 
 

--- On Fri, 2/6/09, K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com> wrote:

From: K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Many scholars accept the documentary sources
To: l_barre AT yahoo.com
Cc: "b-Hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Friday, February 6, 2009, 3:30 AM


Lloyd:


On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 3:49 PM, LM Barre <l_barre AT yahoo.com> wrote:

We do not live in a magic universe with supernatural evens occurring as in
biblical times.  Or as Bultmann said of NT cosmology, we do not live in a
three story universe.  We need to demythologize.

 
Lloyd Barré
 
  
What a perfect example of logical gobbelly-gook!


The question is not what is happening today, but did these events happen in
the past? This is a historical question. What evidence is there for and
against?


Demythologize what? Isn't that just a fancy term for imposing your religious
faith onto another's statement without giving it an honest evaluation?


Karl W. Randolph.



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Can't you tell the stylistic difference between Genesis 1 (P) and Genesis 2-3
(J)?  The names of the deity are different for one.

 
Lloyd Barré
 
 

--- On Fri, 2/6/09, K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com> wrote:

From: K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Many scholars accept the documentary sources
To: "b-Hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Friday, February 6, 2009, 3:39 AM

Lloyd:

On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 4:59 PM, LM Barre <l_barre AT yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> --- On *Thu, 2/5/09, K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>* wrote:
>
> From: K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Many scholars accept the documentary sources
> To: "B-Hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> Date: Thursday, February 5, 2009, 1:39 AM
>
> Ted:
> Aren't you being a bit uncritical? Look at the works you listed!
>
> Who wrote Kings or Chronicles?
>
> Kings was authored/edited by what scholars call the Deuteronomistic
Historian. Chronicles is thogut to have included Ezra and Nehemiah and is so
called "The Chronicler."
>
> Where are your sources for this claim?

Haven't you noticed the stylistic differences between the writing of Ezra
and Nehemiah on one hand, and the different style utilized by the author(s)
of Chronicles? Doesn't that stylistic difference render your claim very
unlikely?

> Their authorship is not listed. Furthermore,
> what sources did they use? Some were listed, but how many were
> merely plagiarized without attribution? As such, are these good examples?
>
> Or how about Psalms? It openly admits multiple authors.
>
> Right. So?
>
> Why do you think that its open admission of multiple authors doesn't
disqualify it as an example proving the accuracy of the Documentary
Hypothesis?

Karl W. Randolph.
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>From l_barre AT yahoo.com Fri Feb 6 15:40:49 2009
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Where?


 
Lloyd Barré
 
 

--- On Fri, 2/6/09, K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com> wrote:

From: K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] A different generation of biblical scholarship
To: l_barre AT yahoo.com
Cc: "Gabe Eisenstein" <gabe AT cascadeaccess.com>, "b-Hebrew"
<b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Friday, February 6, 2009, 3:49 AM


Lloyd:


On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 4:30 PM, LM Barre <l_barre AT yahoo.com> wrote:


"Pentateuch itself claims to have been written by Moses."
 
Where?
 
Lloyd Barré

 
 
What??? You don't know?


Then sit down at your computer, open your Bible software, and look up write
(in Hebrew) for in the Pentateuch. You'll find examples.


Karl W. Randolph. 



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I am a secular humanist.  I have no theology.

 
Lloyd Barré
 
 

--- On Fri, 2/6/09, K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com> wrote:

From: K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Many scholars accept the documentary sources
To: "b-Hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Friday, February 6, 2009, 3:18 AM

Lloyd:

On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 4:40 PM, LM Barre <l_barre AT yahoo.com> wrote:

> However, the conservative scholar looks for reasonable and logical answers
> that still maintain the integrity of God's Word.
>
> This bias is unacceptable to mainstream scholarship. One must be
objective
> without importing foreign theological notions.
>

Your bias (you are not objective) is itself an importation of a foreign
theological notion.


>
> Lloyd Barré
>
>
>
How can your bias not be bias? Are you evaluating the text based on the
message that the text imparts, or based on theological notions foreign to
the message the text propagandizes for? How can that bias be objective?

Karl W. Randolph.
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From: LM Barre <l_barre AT yahoo.com>
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] More Yahweh outside the Bible
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No, they are written in Old Negev (1200-600)

 
Lloyd Barré
 
 

--- On Fri, 2/6/09, Yigal Levin <leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il> wrote:

From: Yigal Levin <leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] More Yahweh outside the Bible
To: "b-Hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Friday, February 6, 2009, 3:50 AM

Many of these readings are very contoversal. And even if they were not,
dating them as "late" as the Iron Age, as Sass does, means that all
of these
so-called references to Yahweh are from AFTER the Israelite
"conquest".
Calling the writers "Canaanite" in this context is misleading.

Yigal Levin

----- Original Message -----
From: "LM Barre" <l_barre AT yahoo.com>
To: "Ancient Bible History"
<AncientBibleHistory AT yahoogroups.com>;
"b-Hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 12:42 AM
Subject: [b-hebrew] More Yahweh outside the Bible


>
> With a collection of over one hundred and thirty inscriptions this study
> has opened a small window to the early (pre-Exile) history of Canaanite
> peoples of the Negev. And since twenty-five percent of the inscriptions
> contain names of the God of Israel (Yah, El/Yah, Yahu, and Yahh) it seems
> fair to say that these Canaanite speakers had a covenant relationship with

> Yahweh.
>
> http://net.lib.byu.edu/imaging/negev/Origins.html
>
> These inscriptions reach back to 1200 BCE.
>
> Lloyd Barré
> http://freewebs.com/lmbarre
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> b-hebrew mailing list
> b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
>
>


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Moses did not write the Pentateuch.  No such claim is made.  It says he wrote
only a part of Deuteronomy.

 
Lloyd Barré
 
 

--- On Fri, 2/6/09, K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com> wrote:

From: K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] A different generation of biblical scholarship
To: "b-hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Friday, February 6, 2009, 4:14 AM

Yigal:
How many modern authors make a claim that they wrote the whole book? In
fact, how many list their names beyond the cover and title page? So why
should we expect something different from an ancient author? In fact, by
mentioning it a few times, does not Moses already give more evidence for his
authorship than given by most authors?

And writing about oneself in the third person in a historical account, is
that unheard of even among modern historians?

Then Joshua, who knew both the author and the authorship of the book,
referred to the work of Moses. To a skeptic like me, it appears that those
who question Mosaic authorship have a harder case to make.

Karl W. Randolph.

On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 7:56 PM, Yigal Levin <leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il>
wrote:

> No, Karl, you'll have to be more specific than that. While there are a
> couple of passeges that refer (in the third person) to Moses as writing
> "the
> words of the Torah" on a book (i.e. scroll), this cannot refer to the
> entire
> Pentateuch as we know it.
>
> Yigal Levin
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They are so rare as not to impact reading the Hebrew Bible.

 
Lloyd Barré
 
 

--- On Fri, 2/6/09, George Athas <George.Athas AT moore.edu.au> wrote:

From: George Athas <George.Athas AT moore.edu.au>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Verb Stems Confusion
To: "B-Hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Friday, February 6, 2009, 2:01 AM

Lloyd,

John was not asking about the seven 'regular' stems, but about the
non-regular stems which appear in the Hebrew Bible. They do exist! If you have
any Bible software, do a search on these verb stems and see.


Regards,

GEORGE ATHAS
Moore Theological College (Sydney, Australia)
www.moore.edu.au

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>From l_barre AT yahoo.com Fri Feb 6 15:49:02 2009
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No, hiphil is a causative stem based on the vocalic infix pattern.

 
Lloyd Barré
 
 

--- On Fri, 2/6/09, Isaac Fried <if AT math.bu.edu> wrote:

From: Isaac Fried <if AT math.bu.edu>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Verb Stems Confusion
To: l_barre AT yahoo.com
Cc: "Jason Hare" <jaihare AT gmail.com>, "b-Hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Friday, February 6, 2009, 3:00 AM



Lloyd,


You are right and may think of the hiphil structure as a root augmented by
the two personal pronouns HI)-HI), one prefixed and one infixed, one for the
instigator of the act and one for the beneficiary of the act.


Isaac Fried, Boston University



On Feb 5, 2009, at 6:59 PM, LM Barre wrote:


You cannot translate the hiphil form into English.
It doesn't *mean* anything.
 
This is wrong.  qatil (hiphil) means "to cause to kill."
 
Lloyd Barrécut



>From l_barre AT yahoo.com Fri Feb 6 15:52:57 2009
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That 2 million people left Egypt and putted around in the wilderness for
forty years is patently ludicrious.  Only the pious try to believe that.

 
Lloyd Barré
 
 

--- On Fri, 2/6/09, K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com> wrote:

From: K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Can absence of evidence be evidence of absence?
To: "B-Hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Friday, February 6, 2009, 3:02 AM

Yitzhak:

On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 4:49 PM, Yitzhak Sapir
<yitzhaksapir AT gmail.com>wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 8:16 AM, Rolf Furuli <furuli AT online.no>
wrote:
>
> > Hypothesis 2: A group of 600,000 men and their families stayed in
> > Sinai some time between the 11th and 15th centuries B.C.E.
> > Prediction: We expect to find ...
> >
> > Yes, what do we expect to find? Taking into account that this is said
> > to have happened more than 3,000 years ago, and the account says that
> > the group did not build houses and cities, what will we expect to
> > find? Perhaps this is a situation where "absence of evidence is
not
> > evidence of absence"? If it is not, we should be able to point
to
> > definite things that we would expect to find.
>
> On a certain basis, this is the exact point. Anyone proposing a certain
> theory must first provide some positive evidence that suggests it is true..
> The Bible cannot itself be taken as evidence.


Yes it can, though the question is, evidence of what? For those who trust
its accuracy, it is evidence of the whole story. For those who have doubts,
it can be recognized as having a large dollop of myth enveloping a kernel of
truth, i.e. a small group, maybe? Sort of like the story of Troy? Only those
whose religion totally rejects the Bible can discount it entirely.

I am not an expert on Greek history, so the following is mere hearsay, but I
was informed that the only evidence we have of the Peloponesian Wars is the
account of Thucidites: there is nothing in the archaeological record that
can be attributed to them. So the same way, other historical writings cannot
be discounted without reason.


> Only if you a priori assume
> the Bible to be true, is it "evidence," and if you assumed it to
be true,
> what's the whole issue with evidence anyway? If you do not assume it
> to be true -- for example, if you start with the view that it may be all
> true
> word for word, but not necessarily -- then it can no longer be taken as
> evidence. Rather, you need external evidence. Furthermore, with no
> reasons or evidence to support your theory, your theory cannot be
> falsified, making it rather unscientific. By delineating what you expect
> to find, you take the second step towards making a scientific theory,
> the first step being stating the hypothesis itself. Thus, "absence
of
> evidence is not evidence of absence," but in the absence of any
> expectations, we have no scientific theory, and in the absence of
> positive evidence external to the Bible, we have no proposition on the
> table.
>
> Let us then delineate something that could remain:
> A large pile of quail bones. How many is "large"? Well, there
were
> 600,000 men. The quail would come for 30 days (Num 11:20), but
> only for 2 days is collection actually said to have taken place (Num
> 11:32), three times of collection in all (day, night, day). Collection
> was at 10 pieces a person (at a minimum), so taken together that
> is 600,000 * 10 * 3 = 18 million units of quail. So how about a
> large pile of bones belonging to 18 million quail.
>

Not so quick. Wouldn't these bones survive if and only if they were all
taken out and piled into a big midden, and even then it would help if the
midden were buried shortly thereafter? But what if the bones were left
scattered about the surface of the land, at the most in little piles, easily
available to scavengers and weathering, what is the probability that those
bones (remember, they are thin avian bones) surviving even one century, let
alone three millennia? Seeing as this was a temporary encampment, would
there have been an effort to make a centralized midden?

>
> …
> Textually, we could suggest something else: If the Pentateuch was
> written after the 10th century, we would expect to find mention of
> iron tools. Prior to this, we would expect copper tools to
> predominate. We thus find such verses as Num 35:16, Deut 27:5,
> or Deut 28:48, which mention ONLY iron tools, to be specifically out
> of place. The iron chariots of Jos 17:16-18 also have very little to do
> with the 15th or 14th centuries. Of course, you can doubt it, you can
> try to falsify it, but it shows you what happens once we have a
> specific proposition on the table: it becomes scientific and open to
> discussion and alternative explanations.
>

Here we are talking about technology transfer during a transitional phase.
Do you really think it happened all at once? Or did it happen slowly, in
stages, slowed down by cultural and other factors? It is known that iron was
known in the ANE centuries before the "official" start of the
"iron age".
But it was not widely used for tools or weapons because it is at the same
time both softer and more brittle than bronze. But once you tempered iron
with a certain amount of carbon in it, you got something that was both
harder and less brittle than bronze.

Let's look at it from the perspective of the Philistines: as a king, you
find out that your smiths have developed a technology that is superior to
anything that your neighboring kingdoms have. Since you have to assume that
these kingdoms all are potential enemies, do you act like Linux and open
source this new technology, or be like Microsoft, keeping it a company
secret? Do you want them to have equal technology, or keep them with
inferior technology? Why wouldn't you keep the technology secret, even
though you might allow some export of tools that are not weapons?

Now let's look at it from the perspective of those who don't have that
technology: you know that bronze is inferior, but that's all you can make.
Since bronze is common, would you even mention it when the tool you are
using is bronze? But a tempered steel tool, on the other hand, is special,
so wouldn't you boast about possession of such a special tool?

So is the mention of steel tools an anachronism, or a picture of gradual
diffusion of technology, its spread hindered by making it a state secret? Is
that not the picture given in 1 Samuel 13?

>
> In fact, if you want to examine the proposition that "The Pentateuch
> was written in the 15th century by a man called Moses," you should
> also be ready to examine the proposition that "The Pentateuch was
> not written in the 15th century or was not written by a man or the
> man was not called Moses." Furthermore, when actually dealing with
> hypotheses, you would also be much more open to variant hypotheses,
> since you may want to modify your original hypothesis as time goes
> on. For example, you find a piece of evidence that has negative
> implications for your original hypothesis (this is actually good, since
> it means you are really considering those pieces of evidence that
> may falsify your hypothesis), but you realize, being partial to your
> hypothesis, that a slight restatement could deal with this evidence
> and also withstand all the evidence that you have collected thus far.
> Unless you are ready to examine variant hypotheses, you are not
> taking a scientific approach.
>

Rarely can you investigate all possibilities in one experiment. Rolf
mentioned one experiment, you just mentioned others as well. The problem
with all of the possibilities mentioned by Rolf as well as you, is that
there is a lack of positive evidence for any, as well as a lack of evidence
that will disprove them.

>
> Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but it also means
> you have no sound proposition to begin with (by definition: sound
> means it rests on solid evidence).
>

So do you admit that there is no sound proposition to begin with, when
dealing with the Documentary Hypothesis?

>
> Yitzhak Sapir



Karl W. Randolph.
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>From l_barre AT yahoo.com Fri Feb 6 16:47:01 2009
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Subject: [b-hebrew] More Yahweh outside the Bible
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Another instance of Yahweh outside the Bible, as if that mattered, is the
Mesha inscription:
 
"And I took from there the ['r']ly of Yahweh and I dragged them before
Chemosh."
 
Lloyd Barré
 
 



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Evidence?


 
Lloyd Barré
 
 

--- On Fri, 2/6/09, Yohanan bin-Dawidh <yohanan.bin.dawidh AT gmail.com> wrote:

From: Yohanan bin-Dawidh <yohanan.bin.dawidh AT gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] A different generation of biblical scholarship
To: l_barre AT yahoo.com
Date: Friday, February 6, 2009, 5:11 AM



Shalom Lloyd;
 
I forgot, I tend to go by writing styles, linguistics, when I look at the
Torah, and I strongly think that Sefer ha-Torah, Sefer Yohoshu'a, and Sefer
'Iyyov, were all written by one-to-two hands, as far as writing style is
concerned.
 
Yohanan bin-Dawidh


On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 6:37 PM, LM Barre <l_barre AT yahoo.com> wrote:








 
Lloyd Barré
 
 

--- On Wed, 2/4/09, Yohanan bin-Dawidh <yohanan.bin.dawidh AT gmail.com> wrote:

From: Yohanan bin-Dawidh <yohanan.bin.dawidh@gmail..com>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] A different generation of biblical scholarship
To: l_barre AT yahoo.com
Date: Wednesday, February 4, 2009, 11:52 PM



Shalom Lloyd;
 
I see some merit in the idea of the Documentary Hypothesis; however, it does
have it faults, and Karl does make a valid point, where are the source
documents?
 
You may find the beginning of P in Geness 1:1-2:3b.  Next comes J with the
story of Eden.  J is found in the Kenite genealogy and P is then found in
Genesis 5.  J and P are edited together in the flood story and so on.  Have
you looked at the theory first hand?
 
This is why such is merely a Hypothesis, and not a fact, because there is no
100% certifiable proof to the claim.
 
Certitude is not possible with an inductive methods.  The thesis is probable
with no competing thesis.
 
 This does not mean that the claim is not the truth, but it also does not
mean that the claim is the truth, it means exactly as stated, there is not
enough proof to prove such either way.
 
You are speaking for yourself.  I have quite satisfied that we have sources
as many others are.
 
As to reading the New Jerusalem Bible, Karl only reads the Torah in Hebrew,
so giving him an English translation to read to prove your claims is a tad
asonine. As to Richard Friedman, I have read his text myself, and do not
agree with him.
 
Why not?
 
My personal theory, which I likewise cannot prove, but have my reasons for 
thinking is correct, thanks to years of study,  is that Mosheh wrote the
entire legal code that is contained within the Humash, and that this legal
code is the actual Torah, the Torah that Yohoshu'a bin-Nun speaks about when
he writes that Mosheh wrote down all of the Torah.
 
You think that Moses wrote the Pentateuch?  Why?  The reading is uncritical.
 
 The story written around this legal code is a collection of writings
written by Mosheh, Yohoshu'a bin-Nun, and people that came before them, all
compiled into what we now refer to as the Torah by the hand of Yohoshu'a
bin-Nun, and Eli'azar.
 
Why do you think Joshua compiled the Torah?
 
 I do not hold to the idea that Ez'ra was the Redactor, and that parts of
the Torah were not written down to the time of Yoshiyahu as so-called
mainstream scholarship denotes, but at the same time, I do not hold to the
notion that Mosheh wrote the entire Torah as we have it now by himself.
 
Do you have any reasons for your conclusions?
 
Yohanan bin-Dawidh



--
יוֹחָנָן בִּן-דָוִד




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With time, however, it has generally become recognized for what it is.
Redford states that "For half a century it has been generally admitted that
we have here the tetragrammaton, the name of the Israelite god, 'Yahweh'; and
if this be the case, as it undoubtedly is, the passage constitutes a most
precious indication of the whereabouts during the late fifteenth century
B.C.. of an enclave revering this god."[6] Redford even goes so far as to
call this group "nascent Israel."[7]
 
Actually, I would not call these Yahwist "nascent Israel."  We know from the
song of Deborah that Israel was composed of only 10 tribes in the 11th
century.  Judah was not included because the Shasu Yahwists came up from the
south to settle there.  However, Israel migrated from the North down into
Palestine.  This is why we have two kingdoms.  There was no United Kingdom
that split into two.  No, there were always two socio-political entities. 
Even during the reign of Saul David, Solomon, and Rehoboam, the North had a
separate collective consciousness going all the way back to the time of
Deborah.  So when we talk about Israelite origins, we are really talking
about two different peoples.  I would like to see two books written, one on
ancient Israel and one on ancient Judah as this would be a more accurate
definition of these socio-political entities.
 
Lloyd Barré
 
 



>From l_barre AT yahoo.com Fri Feb 6 17:29:02 2009
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Thank you.  I am glad you took my meaning.  Do you agree?

 
Lloyd Barré
 
 

--- On Fri, 2/6/09, Stephen Shead <srshead+bh AT gmail.com> wrote:

From: Stephen Shead <srshead+bh AT gmail.com>
Subject: Re: B in Gen 1:1 (was Hebrew considerations)
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org, l_barre AT yahoo.com
Date: Friday, February 6, 2009, 1:41 PM


Lloyd,

You wrote:
'Also, in Genesis 1, the first preposition, b, should be translated as
temporal rather than locative as is so commonly done.  Thus, I would
interpret, "as a beginning, elohim created . . , not "in the beginning . . ."'

This is a miniscule point, but I think you have it the wrong way around: "in
the beginning" is a temporal translation of B, not a locative one, whereas
your translation doesn't render B either temporally or locatively.

Perhaps your confusion is with the word "in", whose most "basic" meaning
(shall we say) is a locative one. But in line with the human propensity to
interpret temporal experience by analogy with spatial experience, it also has
a very common and normal temporal sense ("during the time of"). So "in the
kitchen" uses the locative sense of "in", whereas "in the 16th century" uses
the temporal sense.

In the context of Gen 1:1, the preposition "in" in the phrase "in the
beginning" establishes a temporal relationship between "the beginning" and
"God created...".

But your translation does not render B temporally at all. The temporal bit in
your translation is the substantive "beginning" itself - R)$T - but the
prepositional relationship "as" is not temporal translation of B at all; it
means something like "by way of".

Stephen Shead
Centro de Estudios Pastorales
Santiago, Chile


2009/2/5 <b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org>

From: LM Barre <l_barre AT yahoo.com>
To: Ancient Bible History <AncientBibleHistory AT yahoogroups.com>, b-Hebrew
<b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 15:27:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [b-hebrew] Hebrew considerations
The interest in a consistent transliteration system for Hebrew leads me to
think that this list, called "b-Hebrew," has an interest in the language. 
Perhaps I could offer some help on this topic with a brief discussion of the
verbal system:
 
There are seven basic stems in pairs of active and passive:
 
Qal -Niphal
Piel-Paul
Hiphil-Hophal
Hithpael is middle voice
 
There is an active and passive participle
qatol and qatul
 
Also the infinitive construct.

The stems are determined by reading the infix patterns.
 
There is also the perfect and imperfect aspects.  This is not tense but
archionsart or type of action.  The action is conceived as either complete or
incomplete and may be applied to any tense.
 
There is also waw consecutive with the first verb in a sequence determines
the aspect of all verbs connected by the conjuction waw.
 
The issue that might be open to discussion is whether or not we are right to
see the qtl and yqtl forms as communication aspect rather that time of action.
 
Also, in Genesis 1, the first preposition, b, should be translated as
temporal rather than locative as is so commonly done.  Thus, I would
interpret, "as a beginning, elohim created . . , not "in the beginning . . ."
 
Lloyd Barré
http://freewebs.com/lmbarre
 





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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Many scholars accept the documentary sources
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Bultmann is one of history's preeminent scholars.


 
Lloyd Barré
 
 

--- On Fri, 2/6/09, K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com> wrote:

From: K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Many scholars accept the documentary sources
To: "B-Hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Friday, February 6, 2009, 4:47 PM

George:
I wonder if there is a bit of miscommunication here?

On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 3:21 AM, George Athas
<George.Athas AT moore.edu.au>wrote:

> > Demythologize what? Isn't that just a fancy term for imposing
your
> religious
> > faith onto another's statement without giving it an honest
evaluation?
>
> It is imposing a certain perspective, yes. However, it is not necessarily
> done without an honest evaluation. Just the same way you impose a certain
> perspective, Karl, through an honest evaluation using your own perspective
> (!!), so might some who argues for demythologizing.
>

What I have noticed among some people who pride themselves on their
skepticism, including many in the International Skeptics Society, is that
they are surprisingly unskeptical about certain propositions. As such, they
have what could be characterized almost as a knee-jerk reaction to other
propositions, without careful thought.

Bultmann's statement quoted by Lloyd appears to be one of those knee-jerk
reactions. It reveals an attitude of not "what is the evidence from
history?" but "does it fit my pre-chosen ideology / religion?"

By the same token, could you not accuse many on my side of
"demythologizing"
as they react to the teachings of people like Bultmann?

>
> Not everyone who disagrees with you does so without an honest evaluation.
>

Did I make that claim? But does it not fit many people?

>
>
> Regards,
>
> GEORGE ATHAS
> Moore Theological College (Sydney, Australia)
> www.moore.edu.au
>
> _______________________________________________
> b-hebrew mailing list
> b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
>
_______________________________________________
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b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew




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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Can absence of evidence be evidence of absence?
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Gabe,

> To all who answered my post about Philistines and Samaritans:
>
> The attempt to make the Philistines of Genesis&Exodus into a different,
> completely unknown group is motivated only by awareness of the
> anachronism. No ancient scholars thought there needed to be two groups,
> nor, I would guess, does any modern reader unaware of the anachronism.
> Therefore Occam's Razor would certainly come down on the side of there
> being only one referent for the word "Philistines", even though the way
> they are pictured in Genesis has little in common with the historical
> Philistines. If you had any plausible historical candidates for the
> Genesis "Philistines", that might rebalance the scales, but no one does.
> (In particular, the "invaders" Jim postulates do not fit the texts that
> refer to the "land of the Philistines". How can "invaders" be considered
> owners of the land?)
>

HH: Here is more information and argumentation along the lines of my
previous post:

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/583

As with most allegations brought against the Scriptures, those who claim
that the Philistine nation was not around in Abraham’s day are basing
their conclusion on at least one unprovable assumption—namely, that the
Philistines living in the days of the patriarchs were a great nation,
similar to the one living during the time of the United Kingdom. The
evidence suggests, however, that this assumption simply is wrong. The
Bible does not present the Philistines of Abraham’s day as the same
mighty Philistine nation that would arise hundreds of years later.
Abimelech, the king of Gerar, is portrayed as being intimidated by
Abraham (cf. Genesis 21:25). Surely, had the Philistine people been a
great nation in the time of the patriarchs, they would not have been
afraid of one man (Abraham) and a few hundred servants (cf. Genesis
14:14). Furthermore, of the five great Philistine city-states that were
so prominent throughout the period of the Judges and the United Kingdom
(Ashdod, Ashkelon, Ekron, Gath, and Gaza—Joshua 13:3; 1 Samuel 6:17),
none was mentioned. Rather, only a small village known as Gerar was
named. To assume that the Bible presents the entire civilization of the
Philistines as being present during Abraham’s day is to err. In reality,
one only reads of a small Philistine kingdom.

The word “Philistine” was a rather generic term meaning “sea people.” No
doubt, some of the Aegean Sea people made their way to Palestine long
before a later migration took place—a migration that was considerably
larger. In commenting on these Philistines, Larry Richards observed:

While there is general agreement that massive settlement of the coast of
Canaan by sea peoples from Crete took place around 1200 B.C., there is
no reason to suppose Philistine settlements did not exist long before
this time. In Abram’s time as in the time of Moses a variety of peoples
had settled in Canaan, including Hittites from the far north. Certainly
the seagoing peoples who traded the Mediterranean had established
colonies along the shores of the entire basin for centuries prior to
Abraham’s time. There is no reason to suppose that Philistines, whose
forefathers came from Crete, were not among them (1993, p. 40).
No archaeological evidence exists that denies various groups of “sea
people” were in Canaan long before the arrival of the main body in the
early twelfth century B.C. (see Unger, 1954, p. 91; Archer, 1964, p.
266; Harrison, 1963, p. 32). To assume that not a single group of
Philistines lived in Palestine during the time of Abraham because
archaeology has not documented them until about 1190 B.C. is to argue
from negative evidence and is without substantial weight. In response to
those who would deny the Philistines’ existence based upon their silence
in the archeological world before this time, professor Kitchen stated:
“Inscriptionally, we know so little about the Aegean peoples as compared
with those of the rest of the Ancient Near East in the second millennium
B.C., that it is premature to deny outright the possible existence of
Philistines in the Aegean area before 1200 B.C.” (1966, p. 80n). Likely,
successive waves of sea peoples from the Aegean Sea migrated to Canaan,
even as early as Abraham’s time, and continued coming until the massive
movement in the twelfth century B.C. (Archer, 1970, p. 18).

Based on past experiences, it would seem that critics of the Bible’s
inerrancy would refrain from making accusations when arguing from
silence. For years, modernists and skeptics taught that the Hittite
kingdom, which is mentioned over forty times in Scripture (Exodus 23:28;
Joshua 1:4; et al.), was a figment of the Bible writers’ imaginations,
since no evidence of their existence had been located. But those
utterances vanished into thin air when, in 1906, the Hittite capital was
discovered along with more than 10,000 clay tablets that contained the
Hittites’ law system. Critics of the Bible’s claim of divine inspiration
at one time also accused Luke of gross inaccuracy because he used the
title politarchas to denote the city officials of Thessalonica (Acts
17:6,8), rather than the more common terms strateegoi (magistrates) and
exousiais (authorities). To support their accusations, they simply
pointed out that the term politarch was found nowhere else in all of
Greek literature as an official title. Once again, these charges
eventually were dropped, based on the fact that term politarchas has now
been found in 32 inscriptions from the second century B.C. to the third
century A.D. (Bruce, 1988, p. 324n), with at least five of these
inscriptions being from Thessalonica—the very city about which Luke
wrote in Acts 17 (Robertson, 1997).

Yours,
Harold Holmyard



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