permaculture

[Steve Hart <stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com>]

Thanks Andy and Joe for the counter offensive. I could have assumed this
comment would raise a few heckles and receive such counter attack of my
personality. Which in itself detracts from the subject of the thread of my
original comment. It has nothing to do with permission or approval.
Probably more about observation and awareness. One of our design tools.

Andy, I applaud loudly any energy that helps to spread the great deeds that
the Permaculture movement offers and all the bridge building to boot. We
all know this is very much needed. There are many many people doing this in
every corner of the planet now. But I find it very difficult to sit back
and watch silently, as many people are abused, projects hijacked, insulted,
ripped off, run roughshod over, rights stolen, lied to by a fraud on an
agenda which from what most of believe is counter to the ethics and
principles of Permaculture for their own glorification and financial
rewards. Probably counter to most religious denominations as well. Who
looks after damage control Andy ? Perhaps you will both one day wake up to
the abuses carried out by Lawton and his clan, perhaps you will remain
blind. Time will tell. I will try to keep an open mind.

And, if no one ever spoke up and invited debate Joe, whatever form it comes
in then you and many more would probably vote for Blair again too. Who will
vote for Clinton this year ? A recognised felon. Or should I be part of the
new "passive aggressive" and just stab people in the back politely, rather
than be up front and honest.

Jay..I do get on and do it...always have done, in many forms. But I'm
afraid I do not stick my head in the sand and ignore what else is going on
around me. I've never really been one for watching a forest burn while
drinking from its stream.

Lawrence..Nice story of Ayn Rand..I read only "The Fountainhead" and never
really bought into her objectivism that insidiously. We see the abuse of
civilisations all across the planet. Imperialism it could be boxed. We
English are very good at it. So are the French, Spanish and Portuguese.
Americans are catching up fast.

So Andy I hope you can lock Lawton up in England, his mother land and keep
him as your guru, provider or charlatan, or pied piper while he passes on
the skills he has developed to a more honest brigade.

All the best for the conference. I'm sure many will be inspired.....Steve
Hart

On 14 July 2016 at 00:58, Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 13, 2016 at 6:38 AM, Amy Little <amylittle@hvc.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > Whoa! I didn't know these folks followed Ayn Rand!
> >
>
> I haven't seen much of that lately probably because they keep it under
> wraps but in the past it was prominently displayed
> along with the divine right of people to get rich from permaculture, geting
> rich ahead of everything alse about permaculture.
> Some low hanging fruit: She has a problem with savages; they obviously
> don't know much about money, or care.
> "Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The savage's
> whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is
> the process of setting man free from men."
> Absurd.
> “Run for your life from any man who tells you that money is evil. That
> sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter.”
> Here is the kicker:
> "[The Native Americans] didn't have any rights to the land and there was no
> reason for anyone to grant them rights which they had not conceived and
> were not using.... What was it they were fighting for, if they opposed
> white men on this continent? For their wish to continue a primitive
> existence, their "right" to keep part of the earth untouched, unused and
> not even as property, just keep everybody out so that you will live
> practically like an animal, or maybe a few caves above it. Any white person
> who brought the element of civilization had the right to take over this
> continent."
> "Now, I don't care to discuss the alleged complaints American Indians have
> against this country. I believe, with good reason, the most unsympathetic
> Hollywood portrayal of Indians and what they did to the white man. They had
> no right to a country merely because they were born here and then acted
> like savages. The white man did not *conquer* this country. And you're a
> racist if you object, because it means you believe that certain men are
> entitled to something because of their race. You believe that if someone is
> born in a magnificent country and doesn't know what to do with it, he still
> has a property right to it. He does not. Since the Indians did not have the
> concept of property or property rights--they didn't have a settled society,
> they had predominantly nomadic tribal "cultures"--they didn't have rights
> to the land, and there was no reason for anyone to grant them rights that
> they had not conceived of and were not using. It's wrong to attack a
> country that respects (or even tries to respect) individual rights. If you
> do, you're an aggressor and are morally wrong. But if a "country" does not
> protect rights--if a group of tribesmen are the slaves of their tribal
> chief--why should you respect the "rights" that they don't have or respect?
> The same is true for a dictatorship. The citizens in it have individual
> rights, but the country has no rights and so anyone has the right to invade
> it, because rights are not recognized in that country; and no individual or
> country can have its cake and eat it too--that is, you can't claim one
> should respect the "rights" of Indians, when they had no concept of rights
> and no respect for rights. But let's suppose they were all beautifully
> innocent savages--which they certainly were not. What were they fighting
> for, in opposing the white man on this continent? For their wish to
> continue a primitive existnece; for their "right" to keep part of the earth
> untouched--to keep everybody out so they could live like animals or
> cavemen. Any European who brought with him an element of civilization had
> the right to take over this continent, and it's great that some of them
> did. The racist Indians today--those who condemn America--do not respect
> individual rights."
> Public Television showed a documentary on the Wounded Knee confrontation
> between the Indians and the FBI at Wounded Knee. If you are interested in
> American Indian culture you might want to try to find this video. It does
> not in any way excuse the illegality of the violence committed by those
> Indians and it goes into great detail about what those who opposed them
> did. Take special note of the Indian chanting by a male and a female singer
> at the beginning and end of this movie. It is one of the most beautiful and
> haunting pieces of music I have ever heard.
> --
> Lawrence F. London
> lfljvenaura@gmail.com
> https://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared
> https://plus.google.com/u/0/b/116100117925365792988/+Avantgeared/posts
> https://ello.co/lflondon <https://ello.co/permaculture>
> https://ello.co/permaculture
> https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>



-- 
Kia ora Ehoa

[image: Picture]
*Steve Hart*
*Ecology Architect*
*Designer, Teacher, Builder of Ecologically Sustainable Resilient
Environments, through Urban Design, Architecture, Landscape Architecture
and Systems Ecology.​*
Skype: tipenemanawa
Phone: +64 220 75 62 11

Permaculture Global Design:
www.permacultureglobaldesign.org

The Permaculture International College
www.permaculturecollege.eu
https://permaculturecollege.academia.edu/SteveHart

GAPPS The Global Alliance for Permaculture Partnerships and Solutions.
www.permaculturepartnerships.com