permaculture

["John D'hondt" <dhondt@eircom.net>]

I would expand Mollison's rule to also be wary of selling what can walk of 
the farm. Ireland has been exploiting it's soil for hundreds of years by 
selling agricultural crops both plant and animal and in places the soil is 
completely gone. when we first came here we heard the story of a farmer on 
this same farm who before he went bust tried to grow barley on 300 acres. He 
had a stack of empty sacks at the ready to put the grains in but all but two 
of them remained unused.
When we sold our first lambs it was obvious that we were selling our last 
rare trace elements for the next year the gras refused to grow at all. And I 
really think that there are more minerals leaving under the form of animals 
than under the form of plants. Animals need more minerals and they often can 
not substitute one for another.
So we spent 25 years building soil and we have been quite succesful in that.

And of course I am against gmo anything. I have been growing potatoes 
without blight for over 20 years and the technique is dead simple. Taigasc, 
our agricultural research service, comfirmed my finding but they could not 
see money in it. It is not patentable. So they started working on gmo 
potatoes which can be patented.

John

> While I am against GMO anything, I am particularly against GMO alfalfa.
> Alfalfa has become one of the largest commodity crops in the southwest,
> every day I see semi-truck loads of alfalfa on the highway from Colorado 
> to
> Texas and Oklahoma.
>
> Alfalfa is a great soil conditioner and is great protein for livestock but 
> I
> follow the Mollison rule "never sell of the farm what can't walk off the
> farm".  To produce alfalfa as an export crop is essentially mining the 
> soil
> for export, a form or strip mining, or clear cutting.  Unless the manure 
> of
> the animals is returned to the soil then there is an annual net loss to 
> soil
> fertility. Yet another reason that it is difficult to accomplish
> permaculture without animals.
>
> Ideally we grow crops with the least loss of biomass from the land;  That
> would be fruit and vegetables, or grains if the straw is chopped and
> reincorporated into the soil.
>
> MY .02
>
> Scott
>
> "Another world is not only possible, she is on her way.
> On a quiet day, I can hear her breathing."
> ~Arundhati Roy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
> [mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Lawrence 
> London
> Sent: Monday, March 25, 2013 9:21 AM
> To: permaculture
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] alfalfa
>
> On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 6:12 AM, Lawrence London
> <lfljvenaura@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 5:34 AM, venaurafarm
> <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>wrote:
> > > On 3/24/2013 11:38 PM, Lawrence London wrote:
> > > > On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Frances and David 
> > > > <fdnokes@hotmail.com
> > > > <mailto:fdnokes@hotmail.com>> wrote:
> > > >     Does anyone have any clue as to how ge alfalfa is justified? or
> > > >     promoted?
> > > >     As far as I know, alfalfa is the treasure of farmers...
> > > >     Easy to grow, highly nutritious, deep nitrogen fixing roots.
> > > >     We are in the midst of discussions here: a moratorium on ge crops
> on
> > > >     Vancouver Island,
> > > >     with a local contingency that is 'pro-technology' in farming 
> > > > having
> > > >     most recently been aroused.
> > >
> > > > disgusting fools.the hell with them.........greedy morons
> > >
> > > > shut...that....entire....gmo/chemical ag world........out of your
> > > > life...Block It Entirely.
> > >
> > > > end of story
> > >
> > > > fist raised with two fingers forming V for those holding firm against
> > > > intrusion into our world by this monstrous abomination
> > >
> > > > and keep it out of Cuba too
> > >
> > > > pure unbridled rage at those bastards
> > >
> > > > Go Permaculture!
> > >
> > > >     Alfalfa and a ge apple seem to be key issues for us here at the
> > > moment.
> > >
> > > > Tell them to go to hell and stay there and take their insults to Life,
> > > > Earth and Mankind with them.
> > >
> > > > They themselves are miscogenations, unfit to associate with society.
> > >
> > > > You asked..
> > >
> > > > LL.
> > >
> > > In a primitive tribal society surviving in a remote wilderness they
> > > would have either been doomed outcasts or beggars dukeing it out with
> > > others of their kind for a crust of bread left behind by the village
> > > dogs. They would be despised outcasts for their unwillingness to
> > > cooperate for the common good of the tribe.
> > >
> > > Its the same with those who support the fracking debacle, ones who
> > > would never allow it in their own backyards but would encourage it on
> > > investment property they own well away from them, adjacent to an organic
> > > farmer or functional, productive rural community.
> > >
> > > LL
> >
> > From another conversation I had with a friend:
> M:
>
> > The lands of the Four Rivers are exactly the lands where everyone lives
> > today in the Near East. So the site of the original "Garden of Eden" is a
> > place that cannot be found. It "is" where everybody now is.
> >  You take a nice garden. Invite half a billion people to live there. Give
> > them 5,000 years to plow it up, try out their non-sustainable farming
> > practises, crap on it...
> > And then you have 500 wars on it, conquests, bloodshed, finally in the
> > past century you start to bomb it, poison it, dig it up and divert the
> > waters (as was done in the Iraqi Marshlands) and then sow the place with
> > depleted uranium fragmentation bombs...
> L:
> The Iraqui marshlands are (were) where the Marsh Arabs live (lived). That
> marshland is (was) the largest marine estuary in the Middle East. Under
> "certain governmental entities'" man Hussein, those marshes were drained,
> poioned, channeled. There is a great documentary on reclaiming it; damming
> up the drainage canals to allow flooding of very large areas of the former
> marshlands. So far this has been successful and much of the former 
> wildlife
> has returned. I think only a small percentage of what was destroyed has
> been reclaimed.
>
>   1. Mesopotamian Marshes - Wikipedia, the free
> encyclopedia<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopotamian_Marshes>
>   en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopotamian_*Marsh*esShare
>   The Mesopotamian Marshes or *Iraqi* Marshes are a wetland area located
>   in southern *Iraq* and partially in southwestern Iran. Historically the 
> *
>   marshlands*, mainly *...*
>   History <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopotamian_Marshes#History> -
> Marsh
>   Arabs <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopotamian_Marshes#Marsh_Arabs> -
>   Geography <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopotamian_Marshes#Geography>-
> Main
>   Marshes <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopotamian_Marshes#Main_Marshes>
>   2.
>    UNEP - *Marshlands* Project - Home <http://marshlands.unep.or.jp/>
>   *marshlands*.unep.or.jp/
>   The *Iraqi Marshlands* constitute the largest wetland ecosystem in the
>   Middle East, with environmental and socio-cultural significance. Since
> the
>   1970s, the *...*
>   3.
>    *Iraq's marshlands*: Resurrecting Eden - CBS
> News<http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-20073402.html>
>   www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-20073402.html
>   Jul 24, 2011 - 60 Minutes on CBS News: *Iraq's marshlands*: Resurrecting
>   Eden - Scott Pelley reports on the restoration of *Iraq's marshlands*.
>   4.
>    Environmentalist fights to restore *Iraqi marshlands* known as biblical
>
> *...*<http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/wilderness-resources/stories/environm
> entalist-fights-to-restore-iraqi-marshlands-known>
>   www.mnn.com/.../environmentalist-fights-to-restore-*iraqi*-*mar*...
>   2 days ago - One U.S.-*Iraqi* citizen hopes to replenish the unique
>   wetlands in southern *Iraq* destroyed by Saddam Hussein.
>   5.
>    *Iraq's Marshlands* Face A Second Death By Drought :
> NPR<http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=101431344>
>   www.npr.org > News <http://www.npr.org/sections/news/> >
> World<http://www.npr.org/sections/world/>>
>   Iraq <http://www.npr.org/sections/iraq/>
>   Mar 9, 2009 - *Iraq's* southern *marshlands* were once as famous as the
>   Florida Everglades; they supported a vibrant culture based on fishing,
>   water-buffalo *...*
>
> Remember also the destruction of all those oil wells in Iraq and the
> resulting fires and smoke pollution? Of course they will restore Iraqi
> agriculture to its former glory, with monsanto controlling the process
> (someone put that in the revised Iraqi constitution) using gmo seeds,
> herbicide, no telling what other pesticides, chemical fertilizers, non
> sustainable tillage and other cultural practices....all to profit a very
> small number of corporate persons and their stockholders.
> M:
> And then you have what it is now. A treeless flat dusty spot, where it 
> hits
> 130 degrees in the summertime. The former Garden of Eden.
> <>
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