permaculture

[Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>]

That is an interesting observation regarding food. There are a fair number of 
people trained out there in adapting and at changing systems and responding 
to changes. It is very hard to predict what complex systems will do; you make 
a very good point. Historically, they have tended to fall apart slowly as 
long as some outside force did not physically destroy them. Tainter's book is 
an interesting look at that.

I believe you are saying that as far as "descent" goes, food is not going to 
be the first thing to go by a long shot. That is a different discussion than 
how to create a sustainable society. 

But maybe they are related. Where would you put your focus in creating a 
sustainably grown food supply? 

It's good to look at leverage points from a national/international level. 
They are very different than they are at a local level. 
 
K 



 

 
Koreen Brennan

www.growpermaculture.com
www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition


________________________________
 From: Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org> 
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] The US is no longer food self-reliant?
 

On Aug 17, 2012, at 4:19 PM, John D'hondt wrote:

> 
> What is the draught doing in your calculations Tony.

I'm glad you asked--it makes my point! The USDA harvest projections show how 
complex and unpredictable the food systems are. Harvests of all grains are 
down 12-15% in the US--which means the worst harvest in 8-10 years; far less 
of a catastrophe than one might think, given that the drought is the worst in 
56 years. But get ready for this: The projections are for greater total 
stocks of corn than last year by 10% or more, because the decline in the 
global economy means less exported corn, less being made into ethanol, and, 
for reasons I haven't learned, we are importing more this year. 
http://www.agweb.com/blog/Farmland_Forecast_148/

This--more food, not less--shows how unsuited linear thinking is (like, less 
oil means less food; bad weather means less food, and so on) in a complex 
adaptive system like food, the economy, and most of everything else we live 
in. That's why I'm not a doomer. Systems adapt in utterly unpredictable ways, 
and they often adapt well.

Much of the reason we default to "it's gonna get real bad," besides being 
hard-wired for the scarcity thinking that is habitual, is that the systems we 
depend on are more complex that we can grasp without a lot of study, both of 
the system and of systems thinking in general. That's hard work, and it's 
much easier to think "It can't possibly hang together, it's so complex," when 
in fact it is the complexity that allows it to hang together, adapt, and 
survive even extremely severe shocks. And it's why "grow all your own food" 
is the least resilient, least adaptive response to food issues: it's totally 
un-networked, vulnerable, and simple in the worst sense of the word. That 
kind of self-reliance is not a permaculture principle; it's a default 
scarcity response and if I can achieve one (more) thing in life, it would be 
to root that out.

Toby
http://patternliteracy.com


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Fuel Efficiency....ignorance ? arrogance ? distrust ? or would we rather
just put our head in the sand...perhaps its another "Great Design
Challenge"...perhaps its time for like minds or better to the point like
energies of interest to suggest that the next APC.CC holds an associate
conference / festival on "Alternative Technologies"...bring it all outa the
"Blocks Shed"

Perhaps this video clip will remind us of some sense of the reality that we
are staring at, rather tan squabble over digits....before we stick our head
back in the sand.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwp&NR=1&v=TDYDcjaMe-g
Steve Hart

On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 4:00 AM, <pil-pc-oceania-request@mailman.aboc.net.au
> wrote:

> Send Pil-pc-oceania mailing list submissions to
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> than "Re: Contents of Pil-pc-oceania digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Invitation to connect on LinkedIn (Michele Margolis)
>    2. Re: Fuel efficiency (Evan Young)
>    3. Re: Fuel efficiency (Evan Young)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 18:06:15 +1000
> From: Michele Margolis <michele.margolis@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Pil-pc-oceania] Invitation to connect on LinkedIn
> To: permaculture discussion list <pil-pc-oceania@mailman.aboc.net.au>
> Message-ID:
>         <CACA6xfUv4hLa8Pp4moZM5XymHH1XHHzx4ah=vqa3VExbhEOs> 
> g@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hi Petra,
>
> I have hopefully got off Linkedin as I never actually joined it!! My
> account must have been hacked into. Yes Facebook annoys me, I use it mainly
> for our business - Permaculture Diary (now defunct) and now Growing Local
> Urban Permaculture. I rarely use it to chat, face to face is so much better
> of course!! I have found some good stuff on it and some people I know don't
> use email.
>
> All the best and sorry you got asked - it happened without my knowledge or
> intention!
>
> regards,
>
> Michele
>
> On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 9:26 AM, Petra Kahle <permacultureworks@gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > Hi Michele,
> >
> > what are you on about in your own field and why do you want me in this?
> >
> > I am not a member of LinkedIn and was told that it is similar to facebook
> > except a bit more professional.  I quite frankly am seriously considering
> > getting out of facebook.
> > All these "you have a message" and then you go on it and find lovely but
> > useless chatter -
> > - and that sort of thing I prefer over a cuppa or at least on the phone
> > with someone I know.
> >
> > friendly greetings, Petra.
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 1:02 PM, Michele Margolis <
> > michele.margolis@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>  [image: LinkedIn]
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>   *From Michele Margolis*
> >>
> >> Independent Publishing Professional
> >> Sydney Area, Australia
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> permacultue,
> >>
> >> I'd like to add you to my professional network on LinkedIn.
> >>
> >> - Michele
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  Confirm that you know Michele<
> https://www.linkedin.com/e/-ltrdmf-h5ueove6-5x/isd/8220028426/REQ6p38A/?hsúlse&tok?YnSI-sRS1Ro1
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>   You are receiving Invitation to Connect emails. Unsubscribe<
> http://www.linkedin.com/e/-ltrdmf-h5ueove6-5x/IeWVWZCZ_iXwkWcsdwW2aem2F-_F-di9xej25SaCq-pOQ_negIR/goo/pil-pc-oceania%40mailman%2Eaboc%2Enet%2Eau/20061/I2767666901_1/?hsúlse&tok=3XNAde71ZS1Ro1
> >
> >> ? 2012, LinkedIn Corporation. 2029 Stierlin Ct. Mountain View, CA 94043,
> >> USA
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Pil-pc-oceania mailing list
> >> Pil-pc-oceania@mailman.aboc.net.au
> >> http://mailman.aboc.net.au/mailman/listinfo/pil-pc-oceania
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Petra Kahle
> > co-convener Food Forest Ashburton
> > permacultureworks@gmail.com
> > 18 Laurel Street, Ashburton, VIC 3147, Australia
> > mobile 0420 961 695
> > ??????
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Pil-pc-oceania mailing list
> > Pil-pc-oceania@mailman.aboc.net.au
> > http://mailman.aboc.net.au/mailman/listinfo/pil-pc-oceania
> >
> >
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 09:18:34 +1000
> From: Evan Young <anarcho_vegan@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Pil-pc-oceania] Fuel efficiency
> To: <pil-pc-oceania@mailman.aboc.net.au>
> Cc: pil-pc-oceania@svr2.aboc.net.au
> Message-ID: <BLU156-W506ADC0A19A62251B9C08793B60@phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
> Hi There,
> I have not built any of the electric devices that they talk about as I do
> not have the skills to do such a thing as it sounds like you do. Recently
> panacea did a video series on different ways to improve your fuel economy.
> This included testing three devices that are available for purchase in
> Australia. I decided to incrementally test them on my own car and have so
> far improved the fuel economy of my 1989 Pajero Diesel by 19%.  That was
> with two of them in combination and I have installed a third and am waiting
> for a comparable tank to see if this one works as well.
>
> I now sell one these products commercially, as in to truck drivers and
> farmers and just people with cars. They are happy with the results too.
>
> It is this experience that makes me positive about the other things
> Panacea talk about, they have a website  http://www.panaceauniversity.org/ 
> with open source plans for how to replicate the devices they talk about.
> This is all free so people can build them and see if they work or not. I am
> not saying they will work, just saying that I have had good experiences
> with some of the information they have put out.
> Of course people are free to spend there time elsewhere
> CC: pil-pc-oceania@svr2.aboc.net.au
> Subject: Re: [Pil-pc-oceania] Fuel efficiency
>
>
>
>
>
>
>     No - but if you want us to believe something counter to common
>     knowledge you better offer some incontrovertible proof, anything
>     other than that is diverting needed attention from solutions - both
>     permaculture and renewable energy - that are worthy of attention.
>
>
>
>     So ... what device did you build, and did you get more power out
>     than you put in ?
>
>
>
>     I haven't tried to implement anything on Panacea, because the things
>     I did understand were clearly BS, so why should I believe any of the
>     rest. For example here is what I wrote about one item on their site
>     last year after a friend asked me to check it to see if it was for
>     real. I haven't wasted my time in checking back with the site
>     because clearly the people writing for it don't know what they are
>     talking about.
>
>
>
>         http://www.panacea-usa.org/index.php/pages/rotorverter.html
>
>     There seemed a number of flaws with the Rotorverter
>       video that I found.
>
>       1: They weren't measuring voltage and current at the same place -
>       the current appeared to be being measured in the capacitor circuit
>       - i.e. for all intents and purposes INSIDE the generatori
>
>       2: There was no load, and no current measured at the output
>
>       3: Power is not RMS-volts * RMS-current its
>       RMS(instantaneous-current * instantaneous-voltage). With the volts
>       and current so far out of phase the power is going to be much
>       lower - (probably close to the efficiency of the motor * the
>       efficiency of the generator * the input power)
>
>
>
>       I'm not sure how they were looped - didn't see this information
>       anywhere - but it wouldn't surprise me if things went bang - with
>       large capacitors / inductors - the question is whether they could
>       get useful power (DC, or real AC) out of it - e.g. run more than 2
>       * 100W bulbs, or rectify the AC to DC and measure the Volts and
>       Amps there. (e.g. in their charging the battery example).
>
>
>
>       It seems that all that has been re-discovered is the difference
>       between reactive-power and real-power - after all, reactive-power
>       is what is running in the capacitor circuit, which is why the
>       capacitors aren't getting hot.
>
>
>
>
>     On the other hand, if you believe this stuff please send me $25 and
>     I'll send you plans for a car that runs on water.
>
>
>
>     - Mitra
>
>
>
>     On 11/08/12 10:40 PM, Evan Young wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>         You offer no proof to the contrary. Just because someone says
>         something that is counter to common knowledge does not make it
>         false. You  called Panacea a site for the gullible, but have you
>         actually attempted to replicate anything they talk about? Having
>         successfully implemented some of the devices they advocate I
>         would argue that they are a valuable source of information for
>         permies. This is based on my actual experience
>
>
>
>
>           Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 18:52:09 -0700
>
>           From: mitra_lists@mitra.biz
>
>           To: pil-pc-oceania@svr2.aboc.net.au
>
>           Subject: Re: [Pil-pc-oceania] Fuel efficiency
>
>
>
>           Yes - as usual we start with a 200x claim (turns out its a
>           misprick and back to 20x, but no proof for that either, and
>           turns out that there might just be a project to prove it
>           works.
>
>
>
>           I bet by now that someone else has already taken the 200x and
>           repeated it on another email list as fact.
>
>
>
>           There is a wise saying - something like "outrageous claims
>           require outrageous proof" and it is a good idea to remember
>           that before repeating BS about free energy, super efficient
>           engines etc.  When you've got proof it works, we'll all be
>           very happy to hear about it, otherwise there are plenty of
>           Fiction sites like peswiki or Panacea for the gullible.
>
>
>
>           - Mitra
>
>
>
>           On 24/07/12 1:34 AM, Evan
>             Young wrote:
>
>
>
>
>              Steve I am extremely interested in this
>               field and would love to hear how it goes. I know some
>               people who are working on open sourcing a lot of this type
>               of technology. You can see their website here
> www.panacea-bocaf.org
>
>
>
>
>                 Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 09:08:38
>                 +0200
>
>                 From: stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com
>
>                 To: pil-pc-oceania@mailman.aboc.net.au
>
>                 Subject: [Pil-pc-oceania] Fuel efficiency
>
>
>
>                 Great work Barry....the subject was fuel efficiency but
>                 great to see you have done so much research and rely so
>                 heavily on Wiki. As for "Only a committed conspiracy
>                 believer with a non functioning bullshit
>
>                 detector and no understanding of mechanics or physics
>                 could believe even a
>
>                 2x improvement was possible."....well the prove was in
>                 the pudding and further more ..when I get around to it
>                 I'm thinking of building a fuel vapouriser into my
>                 Citroen 2CV, which presently runs at 60mpg. And IMO it
>                 doesn't take much of a brain and an undertanding in
>                 mechanics and physics to suggest there is plenty of room
>                 for improvement in what we have been fed. So I'll be
>                 conspiring with myself to get out of bed and give this
>                 some more pudding...Steve Hart
>
>
>
>                 On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 4:00
>                   AM, <pil-pc-oceania-request@mailman.aboc.net.au>
>                   wrote:
>
>
>
>                     Message: 1
>
>                     Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 12:10:30 +1000
>
>                     From: "Barry O'Connell" <boc@earthcare.com.au>
>
>                     Subject: Re: [Pil-pc-oceania] Fuel Economy
>
>                     To: "'permaculture discussion list'"
>
>                             <pil-pc-oceania@mailman.aboc.net.au>
>
>                     Message-ID:
>                     <37409DFD21D34B6FAC2858FA3822F656@boobox>
>
>                     Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
>
>                     Steve, are you serious?
>
>
>
>                     Only a committed conspiracy believer with a non
>                     functioning bullshit
>
>                     detector and no understanding of mechanics or
>                     physics could believe even a
>
>                     2x improvement was possible.
>
>
>
>                     According to a Wikipedia article
>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_combustion_engine#Energy_efficiency
>
>                     "Even when aided with turbochargers and stock
>                     efficiency aids, most engines
>
>                     retain an average efficiency of about 18%-20%."
>                      which indicates that at
>
>                     most a 5x improvement is possible in theory.  But
>                     there are limits to what
>
>                     is possible in reality (see below) and, on the road,
>                     engine efficiency is
>
>                     further reduced by losses in transmission, wind
>                     resistance and so on.
>
>
>
>                     Here's a diagram that illustrates why vaporising
>                     fuel before it reaches the
>
>                     combustion chamber isn't going to make much
>                     difference:
>
>
> http://ffden-2.phys.uaf.edu/102spring2002_web_projects/z.yates/zach%27s%20we
>
>                       b%20project%20folder/EICE%20-%20power%20losses.htm
>
>
>
>                     "The thermodynamic limits assume that the engine is
>                     operating under ideal
>
>                     conditions: a frictionless world, ideal gases,
>                     perfect insulators, and
>
>                     operation for infinite time. Real world applications
>                     introduce complexities
>
>                     that reduce efficiency. For example, a real engine
>                     runs best at a specific
>
>                     load, termed its  <
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_band>
>
>                     power band. The
>
>                     engine in a car cruising on a highway is usually
>                     operating significantly
>
>                     below its ideal load, because it is designed for the
>                     higher loads required
>
>                     for rapid acceleration[
>
>                     <
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed>
>
>                     citation needed].
>
>                     In addition, factors such as  <
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_resistance>
>
>                     wind resistance reduce overall system efficiency.
>                     Engine
>
>                     <
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_economy_in_automobiles>
>
>                     fuel economy is
>
>                     usually measured in the units of
>
>                     <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_per_gallon>
>
>                     miles per gallon (or fuel
>
>                     consumption in liters per 100 kilometers) for
>                     automobiles. The volume of
>
>                     hydrocarbon assumes a standard energy content.
>
>
>
>                     Most steel engines have a thermodynamic limit of
>                     37%. Even when aided with
>
>                     turbochargers and stock efficiency aids, most
>                     engines retain an average
>
>                     efficiency of about 18%-20%.
>
>                     <
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_combustion_engine#cite_note-8>
>
>                     [9]
>
>                     Rocket engine efficiencies are better still, up to
>                     70%, because they operate
>
>                     at very high temperatures and pressures and can have
>                     very high expansion
>
>                     ratios.
>
>                     <
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_combustion_engine#cite_note-9>
>
>                     [10]
>
>
>
>                     There are many inventions aimed at increasing the
>                     efficiency of IC engines.
>
>                     In general, practical engines are always compromised
>                     by trade-offs between
>
>                     different properties such as efficiency, weight,
>                     power, heat, response,
>
>                     exhaust emissions, or noise. Sometimes economy also
>                     plays a role in not only
>
>                     the cost of manufacturing the engine itself, but
>                     also manufacturing and
>
>                     distributing the fuel. Increasing the engine's
>                     efficiency brings better fuel
>
>                     economy but only if the fuel cost per energy content
>                     is the same."
>
>
>
>
>
>                       _____
>
>
>
>                     From: Evan Young [mailto:anarcho_vegan@hotmail.com]
>
>                     Sent: Sunday, 22 July 2012 9:52 AM
>
>                     To: pil-pc-oceania@mailman.aboc.net.au
>
>                     Subject: Re: [Pil-pc-oceania] Fuel Economy
>
>
>
>
>
>                     I have been using this stuff
>
>                     <
> http://saveonfuel.mysyntek.com/cgi-bin/in1.pl?inview5&market=1&template>
>                       40&homepage5&language=1>  in my
>                     car for 2 years with excellent results.
>
>                     An average of 12% increase in efficiency on a 1989
>                     Mitusbishi Pajero, Turbo
>
>                     Diesel
>
>
>
>
>
>                       _____
>
>
>
>                     Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 06:23:37 +0200
>
>                     From: stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com
>
>                     To: pil-pc-oceania@mailman.aboc.net.au
>
>                     Subject: [Pil-pc-oceania] Fuel Economy
>
>
>
>                     Thanks Laurence for exposing the suggestion of
>                     hearsay...the reports I read
>
>                     originally came from Bob Colvin who had developed
>                     the fuel vapourisation and
>
>                     fuel jets of carburetion and fuel combustion. The
>                     simple science was that
>
>                     petrol needs to be in vapour form to combust not
>                     liquid like all carbs offer
>
>                     and still do. Did I say 200 x...slip of the digit it
>                     was in fact 20 x....and
>
>                     then many will say " why have we not seen this on
>                     the market" well..there's
>
>                     a lot of sore knees out there and many more have
>                     been silenced and paid
>
>                     of...very typical and far too common....Steve Hart
>
>
>
>                     --------------------------
>
>
>
>                     Message: 1
>
>                     Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 07:40:16 +1000
>
>                     From: "Laurence Gaffney & Meredith Bryce" <
> l.gaffney@bigpond.com>
>
>                     Subject: [Pil-pc-oceania] IC Engine (automobile?)
>                     Efficiency
>
>                     To: <pil-pc-oceania@mailman.aboc.net.au>
>
>                     Message-ID: <000001cd6464$c1a47460$44ed5d20$@
> bigpond.com>
>
>                     Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
>
>                     Steve Wrote (Mon, 16 Jul 2012 20:10:43 +0200):- "I
>                     have been aware for a
>
>                     long time that we can run the humble old combustion
>                     engine at rates 200
>
>                     times more efficient than conventional running."
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>                     Is this claim a provable fact?
>
>
>
>                     What evidence is available for consideration?
>
>
>
>                     Note:-
>
>
>
>                     1.            The usual rules of evidence disallow
>                     hearsay evidence.
>
>
>
>                     2.            A definition of efficiency is probably
>                     necessary to progress
>
>                     this discussion any further.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>                     Laurence Gaffney
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>                     Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 20:10:43 +0200
>
>
>
>                     From: Steve Hart <stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com>
>
>
>
>                     Subject: [Pil-pc-oceania] Nth American Conf. ?
>
>
>
>                     To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>
>
>
>                     Cc: pil-pc-oceania@mailman.aboc.net.au,
>                     Roberto perez
>
>
>
>                                     <ropernicus2002@yahoo.es>
>
>
>
>                     Message-ID:
>
>
>
>
>
>                     <CALkGY+odT7xYK> 
> DsvSc0YeX4Xg6B3W6ZQbd9CBMLf0vd-sJNaw@mail.gmail.com>
>
>
>
>                     Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>                     Nth American Conf.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>                     Thanks Bob for your response. I certainly respect
>                     the concerns and views you
>
>                     outline which are shared by many. However I often
>                     wonder if we, the masses,
>
>                     are not forever being conned in many areas
>                     especially the debates raging
>
>                     over fuels and the costs and dangers of such. I have
>                     been aware for a long
>
>                     time that we can run the humble old combustion
>                     engine at rates 200 times
>
>                     more efficient than conventional running. Why do we
>                     not see this ?
>
>
>
>                     Perhaps because that would not sell fuel at the same
>                     rate and not allow the
>
>                     petrochem companys to rake the billions they do. Can
>                     we argue the same for
>
>                     air planes and their efficiiency..I often ask this
>                     question and are we just
>
>                     the pawns in their game ?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>                     I also like your support of where such a conference
>                     could be held and how
>
>                     all Americans could travel there ? Where is the
>                     demographic centre of Nth
>
>                     America ?  Detroit ?...be a great place to make a
>                     statement wouldn't it ?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>                     To add to the topic of developing continental
>                     regional conferences from our
>
>                     workshop at IPC10 Roberto Perez (Cuba) proposed
>                     these regions:
>
>
>
>                     1 North America
>
>
>
>                     2 Meso America and Caribbean
>
>
>
>                     3 South America
>
>
>
>                     4 Europe
>
>
>
>                     5 Eastern Europe
>
>
>
>                     6 Australia and new zealand and oceania
>
>
>
>                     7 Subsaharian Africa
>
>
>
>                     8 north Africa  and middle east
>
>
>
>                     9 Far east
>
>
>
>                     10 India and mid asia
>
>
>
>                     I look forward to the continuing debate
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>                     Regards
>
>
>
>                     Steve Hart
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>           --
> Mitra Ardron
>
> Lumeter Networks: www.lumeter.net (under construction!)
> Natural Innovation: www.naturalinnovation.org
> www.mitra.biz/blog  skype: mitra_earth
> In San Francisco +1-510-423-1767
> +1(510)984-2639 or Skype mitra_earth either should redirect to my mobile
> or take voicemail when I'm traveling
>
>
>
>           _______________________________________________
>           Pil-pc-oceania mailing list
>           Pil-pc-oceania@mailman.aboc.net.au
>           http://mailman.aboc.net.au/mailman/listinfo/pil-pc-oceania
>
>
>
>
>     --
> Mitra Ardron
>
> Lumeter Networks: www.lumeter.net (under construction!)
> Natural Innovation: www.naturalinnovation.org
> www.mitra.biz/blog  skype: mitra_earth
> In San Francisco +1-510-423-1767
> +1(510)984-2639 or Skype mitra_earth either should redirect to my mobile
> or take voicemail when I'm traveling
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pil-pc-oceania mailing list
> Pil-pc-oceania@mailman.aboc.net.au
> http://mailman.aboc.net.au/mailman/listinfo/pil-pc-oceania
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 09:18:34 +1000
> From: Evan Young <anarcho_vegan@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Pil-pc-oceania] Fuel efficiency
> To: <pil-pc-oceania@mailman.aboc.net.au>
> Cc: pil-pc-oceania@svr2.aboc.net.au
> Message-ID: <BLU156-W506ADC0A19A62251B9C08793B60@phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
> Hi There,
> I have not built any of the electric devices that they talk about as I do
> not have the skills to do such a thing as it sounds like you do. Recently
> panacea did a video series on different ways to improve your fuel economy.
> This included testing three devices that are available for purchase in
> Australia. I decided to incrementally test them on my own car and have so
> far improved the fuel economy of my 1989 Pajero Diesel by 19%.  That was
> with two of them in combination and I have installed a third and am waiting
> for a comparable tank to see if this one works as well.
>
> I now sell one these products commercially, as in to truck drivers and
> farmers and just people with cars. They are happy with the results too.
>
> It is this experience that makes me positive about the other things
> Panacea talk about, they have a website  http://www.panaceauniversity.org/ 
> with open source plans for how to replicate the devices they talk about.
> This is all free so people can build them and see if they work or not. I am
> not saying they will work, just saying that I have had good experiences
> with some of the information they have put out.
> Of course people are free to spend there time elsewhere
> CC: pil-pc-oceania@svr2.aboc.net.au
> Subject: Re: [Pil-pc-oceania] Fuel efficiency
>
>
>
>
>
>
>     No - but if you want us to believe something counter to common
>     knowledge you better offer some incontrovertible proof, anything
>     other than that is diverting needed attention from solutions - both
>     permaculture and renewable energy - that are worthy of attention.
>
>
>
>     So ... what device did you build, and did you get more power out
>     than you put in ?
>
>
>
>     I haven't tried to implement anything on Panacea, because the things
>     I did understand were clearly BS, so why should I believe any of the
>     rest. For example here is what I wrote about one item on their site
>     last year after a friend asked me to check it to see if it was for
>     real. I haven't wasted my time in checking back with the site
>     because clearly the people writing for it don't know what they are
>     talking about.
>
>
>
>         http://www.panacea-usa.org/index.php/pages/rotorverter.html
>
>     There seemed a number of flaws with the Rotorverter
>       video that I found.
>
>       1: They weren't measuring voltage and current at the same place -
>       the current appeared to be being measured in the capacitor circuit
>       - i.e. for all intents and purposes INSIDE the generatori
>
>       2: There was no load, and no current measured at the output
>
>       3: Power is not RMS-volts * RMS-current its
>       RMS(instantaneous-current * instantaneous-voltage). With the volts
>       and current so far out of phase the power is going to be much
>       lower - (probably close to the efficiency of the motor * the
>       efficiency of the generator * the input power)
>
>
>
>       I'm not sure how they were looped - didn't see this information
>       anywhere - but it wouldn't surprise me if things went bang - with
>       large capacitors / inductors - the question is whether they could
>       get useful power (DC, or real AC) out of it - e.g. run more than 2
>       * 100W bulbs, or rectify the AC to DC and measure the Volts and
>       Amps there. (e.g. in their charging the battery example).
>
>
>
>       It seems that all that has been re-discovered is the difference
>       between reactive-power and real-power - after all, reactive-power
>       is what is running in the capacitor circuit, which is why the
>       capacitors aren't getting hot.
>
>
>
>
>     On the other hand, if you believe this stuff please send me $25 and
>     I'll send you plans for a car that runs on water.
>
>
>
>     - Mitra
>
>
>
>     On 11/08/12 10:40 PM, Evan Young wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>         You offer no proof to the contrary. Just because someone says
>         something that is counter to common knowledge does not make it
>         false. You  called Panacea a site for the gullible, but have you
>         actually attempted to replicate anything they talk about? Having
>         successfully implemented some of the devices they advocate I
>         would argue that they are a valuable source of information for
>         permies. This is based on my actual experience
>
>
>
>
>           Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 18:52:09 -0700
>
>           From: mitra_lists@mitra.biz
>
>           To: pil-pc-oceania@svr2.aboc.net.au
>
>           Subject: Re: [Pil-pc-oceania] Fuel efficiency
>
>
>
>           Yes - as usual we start with a 200x claim (turns out its a
>           misprick and back to 20x, but no proof for that either, and
>           turns out that there might just be a project to prove it
>           works.
>
>
>
>           I bet by now that someone else has already taken the 200x and
>           repeated it on another email list as fact.
>
>
>
>           There is a wise saying - something like "outrageous claims
>           require outrageous proof" and it is a good idea to remember
>           that before repeating BS about free energy, super efficient
>           engines etc.  When you've got proof it works, we'll all be
>           very happy to hear about it, otherwise there are plenty of
>           Fiction sites like peswiki or Panacea for the gullible.
>
>
>
>           - Mitra
>
>
>
>           On 24/07/12 1:34 AM, Evan
>             Young wrote:
>
>
>
>
>              Steve I am extremely interested in this
>               field and would love to hear how it goes. I know some
>               people who are working on open sourcing a lot of this type
>               of technology. You can see their website here
> www.panacea-bocaf.org
>
>
>
>
>                 Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 09:08:38
>                 +0200
>
>                 From: stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com
>
>                 To: pil-pc-oceania@mailman.aboc.net.au
>
>                 Subject: [Pil-pc-oceania] Fuel efficiency
>
>
>
>                 Great work Barry....the subject was fuel efficiency but
>                 great to see you have done so much research and rely so
>                 heavily on Wiki. As for "Only a committed conspiracy
>                 believer with a non functioning bullshit
>
>                 detector and no understanding of mechanics or physics
>                 could believe even a
>
>                 2x improvement was possible."....well the prove was in
>                 the pudding and further more ..when I get around to it
>                 I'm thinking of building a fuel vapouriser into my
>                 Citroen 2CV, which presently runs at 60mpg. And IMO it
>                 doesn't take much of a brain and an undertanding in
>                 mechanics and physics to suggest there is plenty of room
>                 for improvement in what we have been fed. So I'll be
>                 conspiring with myself to get out of bed and give this
>                 some more pudding...Steve Hart
>
>
>
>                 On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 4:00
>                   AM, <pil-pc-oceania-request@mailman.aboc.net.au>
>                   wrote:
>
>
>
>                     Message: 1
>
>                     Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 12:10:30 +1000
>
>                     From: "Barry O'Connell" <boc@earthcare.com.au>
>
>                     Subject: Re: [Pil-pc-oceania] Fuel Economy
>
>                     To: "'permaculture discussion list'"
>
>                             <pil-pc-oceania@mailman.aboc.net.au>
>
>                     Message-ID:
>                     <37409DFD21D34B6FAC2858FA3822F656@boobox>
>
>                     Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
>
>                     Steve, are you serious?
>
>
>
>                     Only a committed conspiracy believer with a non
>                     functioning bullshit
>
>                     detector and no understanding of mechanics or
>                     physics could believe even a
>
>                     2x improvement was possible.
>
>
>
>                     According to a Wikipedia article
>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_combustion_engine#Energy_efficiency
>
>                     "Even when aided with turbochargers and stock
>                     efficiency aids, most engines
>
>                     retain an average efficiency of about 18%-20%."
>                      which indicates that at
>
>                     most a 5x improvement is possible in theory.  But
>                     there are limits to what
>
>                     is possible in reality (see below) and, on the road,
>                     engine efficiency is
>
>                     further reduced by losses in transmission, wind
>                     resistance and so on.
>
>
>
>                     Here's a diagram that illustrates why vaporising
>                     fuel before it reaches the
>
>                     combustion chamber isn't going to make much
>                     difference:
>
>
> http://ffden-2.phys.uaf.edu/102spring2002_web_projects/z.yates/zach%27s%20we
>
>                       b%20project%20folder/EICE%20-%20power%20losses.htm
>
>
>
>                     "The thermodynamic limits assume that the engine is
>                     operating under ideal
>
>                     conditions: a frictionless world, ideal gases,
>                     perfect insulators, and
>
>                     operation for infinite time. Real world applications
>                     introduce complexities
>
>                     that reduce efficiency. For example, a real engine
>                     runs best at a specific
>
>                     load, termed its  <
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_band>
>
>                     power band. The
>
>                     engine in a car cruising on a highway is usually
>                     operating significantly
>
>                     below its ideal load, because it is designed for the
>                     higher loads required
>
>                     for rapid acceleration[
>
>                     <
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed>
>
>                     citation needed].
>
>                     In addition, factors such as  <
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_resistance>
>
>                     wind resistance reduce overall system efficiency.
>                     Engine
>
>                     <
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_economy_in_automobiles>
>
>                     fuel economy is
>
>                     usually measured in the units of
>
>                     <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_per_gallon>
>
>                     miles per gallon (or fuel
>
>                     consumption in liters per 100 kilometers) for
>                     automobiles. The volume of
>
>                     hydrocarbon assumes a standard energy content.
>
>
>
>                     Most steel engines have a thermodynamic limit of
>                     37%. Even when aided with
>
>                     turbochargers and stock efficiency aids, most
>                     engines retain an average
>
>                     efficiency of about 18%-20%.
>
>                     <
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_combustion_engine#cite_note-8>
>
>                     [9]
>
>                     Rocket engine efficiencies are better still, up to
>                     70%, because they operate
>
>                     at very high temperatures and pressures and can have
>                     very high expansion
>
>                     ratios.
>
>                     <
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_combustion_engine#cite_note-9>
>
>                     [10]
>
>
>
>                     There are many inventions aimed at increasing the
>                     efficiency of IC engines.
>
>                     In general, practical engines are always compromised
>                     by trade-offs between
>
>                     different properties such as efficiency, weight,
>                     power, heat, response,
>
>                     exhaust emissions, or noise. Sometimes economy also
>                     plays a role in not only
>
>                     the cost of manufacturing the engine itself, but
>                     also manufacturing and
>
>                     distributing the fuel. Increasing the engine's
>                     efficiency brings better fuel
>
>                     economy but only if the fuel cost per energy content
>                     is the same."
>
>
>
>
>
>                       _____
>
>
>
>                     From: Evan Young [mailto:anarcho_vegan@hotmail.com]
>
>                     Sent: Sunday, 22 July 2012 9:52 AM
>
>                     To: pil-pc-oceania@mailman.aboc.net.au
>
>                     Subject: Re: [Pil-pc-oceania] Fuel Economy
>
>
>
>
>
>                     I have been using this stuff
>
>                     <
> http://saveonfuel.mysyntek.com/cgi-bin/in1.pl?inview5&market=1&template>
>                       40&homepage5&language=1>  in my
>                     car for 2 years with excellent results.
>
>                     An average of 12% increase in efficiency on a 1989
>                     Mitusbishi Pajero, Turbo
>
>                     Diesel
>
>
>
>
>
>                       _____
>
>
>
>                     Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 06:23:37 +0200
>
>                     From: stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com
>
>                     To: pil-pc-oceania@mailman.aboc.net.au
>
>                     Subject: [Pil-pc-oceania] Fuel Economy
>
>
>
>                     Thanks Laurence for exposing the suggestion of
>                     hearsay...the reports I read
>
>                     originally came from Bob Colvin who had developed
>                     the fuel vapourisation and
>
>                     fuel jets of carburetion and fuel combustion. The
>                     simple science was that
>
>                     petrol needs to be in vapour form to combust not
>                     liquid like all carbs offer
>
>                     and still do. Did I say 200 x...slip of the digit it
>                     was in fact 20 x....and
>
>                     then many will say " why have we not seen this on
>                     the market" well..there's
>
>                     a lot of sore knees out there and many more have
>                     been silenced and paid
>
>                     of...very typical and far too common....Steve Hart
>
>
>
>                     --------------------------
>
>
>
>                     Message: 1
>
>                     Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 07:40:16 +1000
>
>                     From: "Laurence Gaffney & Meredith Bryce" <
> l.gaffney@bigpond.com>
>
>                     Subject: [Pil-pc-oceania] IC Engine (automobile?)
>                     Efficiency
>
>                     To: <pil-pc-oceania@mailman.aboc.net.au>
>
>                     Message-ID: <000001cd6464$c1a47460$44ed5d20$@
> bigpond.com>
>
>                     Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
>
>                     Steve Wrote (Mon, 16 Jul 2012 20:10:43 +0200):- "I
>                     have been aware for a
>
>                     long time that we can run the humble old combustion
>                     engine at rates 200
>
>                     times more efficient than conventional running."
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>                     Is this claim a provable fact?
>
>
>
>                     What evidence is available for consideration?
>
>
>
>                     Note:-
>
>
>
>                     1.            The usual rules of evidence disallow
>                     hearsay evidence.
>
>
>
>                     2.            A definition of efficiency is probably
>                     necessary to progress
>
>                     this discussion any further.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>                     Laurence Gaffney
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>                     Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 20:10:43 +0200
>
>
>
>                     From: Steve Hart <stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com>
>
>
>
>                     Subject: [Pil-pc-oceania] Nth American Conf. ?
>
>
>
>                     To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>
>
>
>                     Cc: pil-pc-oceania@mailman.aboc.net.au,
>                     Roberto perez
>
>
>
>                                     <ropernicus2002@yahoo.es>
>
>
>
>                     Message-ID:
>
>
>
>
>
>                     <CALkGY+odT7xYK> 
> DsvSc0YeX4Xg6B3W6ZQbd9CBMLf0vd-sJNaw@mail.gmail.com>
>
>
>
>                     Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>                     Nth American Conf.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>                     Thanks Bob for your response. I certainly respect
>                     the concerns and views you
>
>                     outline which are shared by many. However I often
>                     wonder if we, the masses,
>
>                     are not forever being conned in many areas
>                     especially the debates raging
>
>                     over fuels and the costs and dangers of such. I have
>                     been aware for a long
>
>                     time that we can run the humble old combustion
>                     engine at rates 200 times
>
>                     more efficient than conventional running. Why do we
>                     not see this ?
>
>
>
>                     Perhaps because that would not sell fuel at the same
>                     rate and not allow the
>
>                     petrochem companys to rake the billions they do. Can
>                     we argue the same for
>
>                     air planes and their efficiiency..I often ask this
>                     question and are we just
>
>                     the pawns in their game ?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>                     I also like your support of where such a conference
>                     could be held and how
>
>                     all Americans could travel there ? Where is the
>                     demographic centre of Nth
>
>                     America ?  Detroit ?...be a great place to make a
>                     statement wouldn't it ?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>                     To add to the topic of developing continental
>                     regional conferences from our
>
>                     workshop at IPC10 Roberto Perez (Cuba) proposed
>                     these regions:
>
>
>
>                     1 North America
>
>
>
>                     2 Meso America and Caribbean
>
>
>
>                     3 South America
>
>
>
>                     4 Europe
>
>
>
>                     5 Eastern Europe
>
>
>
>                     6 Australia and new zealand and oceania
>
>
>
>                     7 Subsaharian Africa
>
>
>
>                     8 north Africa  and middle east
>
>
>
>                     9 Far east
>
>
>
>                     10 India and mid asia
>
>
>
>                     I look forward to the continuing debate
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>                     Regards
>
>
>
>                     Steve Hart
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>           --
> Mitra Ardron
>
> Lumeter Networks: www.lumeter.net (under construction!)
> Natural Innovation: www.naturalinnovation.org
> www.mitra.biz/blog  skype: mitra_earth
> In San Francisco +1-510-423-1767
> +1(510)984-2639 or Skype mitra_earth either should redirect to my mobile
> or take voicemail when I'm traveling
>
>
>
>           _______________________________________________
>           Pil-pc-oceania mailing list
>           Pil-pc-oceania@mailman.aboc.net.au
>           http://mailman.aboc.net.au/mailman/listinfo/pil-pc-oceania
>
>
>
>
>     --
> Mitra Ardron
>
> Lumeter Networks: www.lumeter.net (under construction!)
> Natural Innovation: www.naturalinnovation.org
> www.mitra.biz/blog  skype: mitra_earth
> In San Francisco +1-510-423-1767
> +1(510)984-2639 or Skype mitra_earth either should redirect to my mobile
> or take voicemail when I'm traveling
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> End of Pil-pc-oceania Digest, Vol 70, Issue 6
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>



--
Kia ora
[image: Picture]
Steve Hart
Ecology Architect
skype: stevenlawrencehart